IPL Who Will win It.?

[SaiSrini]

Yeah, FAIL against South Africa, England, West Indies and Pakistan when we needed him.

Kinda right, agreed to it, but then again no outstanding captaincy skills were shown during the match. Isn't he the best skipper? Giving Chawla the second last over was a big fail.

Yeah, sure a guy who got spanked against a minnow in the first match and without any match practice was given the nod ahead of Ashwin who was doing so well.

Why you loved it when he took the responsibility in the final? Why you wouldn't have loved it if Yuvi (the regular no. 5 in form batsman) would have done the work for India.

It was all done by Dhoni to rise to fame, cause it was the world cup final. He came early and spanked the lankans, and great, he is the hero cause he became the guy who won India the world cup with captaincy and batting. Brilliant. fried chicken.

Rise to fame, my foot!!! Its a two sided coin, if he comes in and fails at that point of time and if India had lost the game, he would have been crucified. It took guts from him to bring himself up the order even when Yuvraj Singh, an in-form guy, was still there to come out. Dhoni goes with the flow. When it looks like the team is recuperating and needs a more forceful push forward, Dhoni is the best guy to come out and push the team forward. Thats why he came when Kohli got out, because Kohli and Gambhir had already staged a mini partnership. But it was a highly risky move, and that too by him whose form was very patchy in the WC>

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Yeah Sachin is overrated I agree, he is not god as media shows it.
But the hard fact is Sachin contributes with the bat in 90% of the matches when India needs him whereas Dhoni fails in 90% of the match with the bat.

There has been a big debate on whether Sachin really contributes as much to an Indian win as he is being eugolised to be (anyways wont go into that because I dont believe in it much and I dont want to insult Sachin). Dhoni's record as a batsman after becoming captain is far better than Ganguly's record as a batsman after being captain. Dhoni has had a better record as a batsman after he became captain. If you can bear with Sachin, Sehwag and the likes going through patches of bad form, why not Dhoni? He came good in the most important game of India's career, the World Cup final.

 

[Varun]

Just wanted to ask everyone, if it's about runs, why do you think a great captain need always score the runs when the team's winning? I mean, look at Stephen Fleming, an average of 32, but a great captain!

I have to agree with the flaws in his captaincy, like bringing in Chawla, Sreesanth etc, but he didn't get demoralized by it, which matters most; he kept his cool.

I still agree with the overrated thing though. The whole Indian team is kind of overrated, but not by their performances, but by the media. The media and the credulous audience; emotional fans are to blame, not the team or the captain. Imagined if India lost the final, then it is obviously palpable that the media would've heavily chided him, neglecting India's winning run during the group stages, kind of underrating them. It's the same extreme behaviour after India's win, they are overrating the team.

 

[Dipak]

No, it was not. He is India's best ever captain.

Nope. Ganguly>Dhoni as far as leadership is concerned

Dhoni is on his way to become one of the most overrated captains in the world.

I've corrected that for you.

 

[Aditya]

I'm surprised that lot of members here think that Dhoni is not one of the best captains that India has had, if not the best. His leadership skills are amazing, just amazing. It isn't easy to come at 3rd down in a world cup final, knowing that your own form hasn't been impressive and add to that, India's media would've been after Dhoni after the world cup, even if the result would have been same, India winning in the final. People would've always said that Dhoni didn't perform throughout the world cup with the bat but this man had the guts to come at 3rd down, make 93* and win the world cup for his team. I agree, Gambhir did play well but he needed support from other end and Dhoni provided that support. Dhoni's approach about the game is amazing, he is always cool and calm, never angry on his players, even not in pressure situations and this is what makes him a great leader. He always gives his players a second chance, never does injustice to any player. Take example of Jadeja, well, I know lot has been said about Dhoni overrating Jadeja but the truth is, India were desperate to find a good all rounder and so it was important that Jadeja is given some chances but once Yusuf started to be more than useful with the ball, India had a balanced side and Jadeja was dropped from the team.

I've mentioned this in some other thread as well and I'd mention it in this thread as well, I agree that in CWC 2011, Dhoni did had a good side to lead but what about t20 CWC in 2007? Did he had a good side to lead in this world cup? My answer is NO. How many of us believed that we will win the t20 world cup in 2007? After a poor performance in the 50 over world cup, earlier that year, Dhoni had a big task on his shoulders but he showed that he is a great captain. He is the best Indian captain ever for me and I must also mention that I have immense respect for Ganguly as a captain and as a player but I rate Dhoni higher than him, as far as captaincy is concern.

 

[Gaurav_7]

Yeah , especially when players like Hussey , Afridi , Umar Akmal did the same on a consistent basis .

Wow. You need to understand the situation they came in and the situation in which Dhoni came. Mostly, the guys you mentioned got a lot more time to spend in the field. When Dhoni got it, he made the best of it.

Nothing much one can do? Giving the ball in the 49th over to Chawla , that's one thing he certainly cannot do if at all he's a great leader.

Alright, a poor decision. It didn't pay off. That's it. Had it paid off, many would have appreciated him. This is what Indian team always lacked. Something to out do the other teams. We always used defensive approach. Not the case with Dhoni. Somethings go your way, some don't. Simple.

Fair enough , but nowhere is it near to justify him a good captain .

In addition to the conditions thing, SL players are very good at playing spin.

The fact is Ponting himself was key to Australia's success and the same applies to Ganguly for leading a depleted Indian side to the finals in 2003 .

Agreed. But, do you think one player/captain can do this alone? For Australia it was the whole team chipping in. For India, one or two outstanding performances did the job in 2003. Ganguly's decision to bowl first in the final, anyone? On a flat deck, that is.

What MSD possesses atm is probably the greatest Indian side ever(similar to Ponting's troops 4 years back) , but the outsiders at the least expect him to contribute 50% to the team's success with the bat/bowl(whichever role he's primarily strong in) and don't expect him to take these silly gambles like he's been doing all over his career. i really don't mind how you see MSD and his skills , but the thing is , the majority of the Indian members here in PC themselves deny he's the greatest leader and a talented batsman .

Don't compare this team to Ponting's team. Batting goes alright, same level. Bowling attack of India is pathetic. Can't even compare one single bowler to then Australian bowlers.

Yes, maybe he (Dhoni) didn't play a vital role in winning most of the matches in the WC. But, no one can really keep scoring runs all the time. He might not be a great leader, but is a successful and a brave one. He surely is a talented batsman though.

It was all done by Dhoni to rise to fame, cause it was the world cup final. He came early and spanked the lankans, and great, he is the hero cause he became the guy who won India the world cup with captaincy and batting. Brilliant. fried chicken.

So, it was all done for fame. Alright. Maybe he knew he will definitely score runs that day. So, it was fame for taking. Right? Seriously, talk mature. He had the guts to come in at that situation and dealt with it beautifully. His free scoring allowed Gambhir to relax as he played his own self.

 

[Varun]

Ganguly played against tougher captains and teams. I have to say that - Australia, Pakistan, New Zealand, England, West Indies aren't even as strong as they were in 2003/2007. Sri Lanka, South Africa have actually improved, but have lost gems like Vaas, Jayasuriya and Pollock respectively. There's no comparison; nobody's better.

Does anybody even care to read what I write?

 

[Aditya]

Haha, don't worry we do read what you write. Your point is valid to some extent but it isn't like Dhoni hasn't shown good captaincy skills versus teams like South Africa or Sri Lanka. These two teams have indeed lost some gem of a players but they still have some excellent players in their side who have the capability to be tomorrow's legends.

 

[Gaurav_7]

Ganguly played against tougher captains and teams. I have to say that - Australia, Pakistan, New Zealand, England, West Indies aren't even as strong as they were in 2003/2007. Sri Lanka, South Africa have actually improved, but have lost gems like Vaas, Jayasuriya and Pollock respectively. There's no comparison; nobody's better.

If we keep on discussing on the basis of what you said here Varun, the discussion will be worthless. Ganguly played when other teams were strong or not isn't the case. Also, players coming and going is something we can't handle.

Ganguly instilled that required aggression in Indian team while Dhoni has taken over and now showing us the results of that along with his own way of handling the team.

 

[SaiSrini]

Nope. Ganguly>Dhoni as far as leadership is concerned

I've corrected that for you.

Nope. Dhoni is anyday better than Ganguly and he does a lot less acting on the field than Ganguly. Ganguly showed himself as a great captain more by his antics on and off the field (the shirt twirling incident helped his 'great captain' image in a huge way). Ganguly gave up very easily when things didnt go his way. Ganguly let his players down many times by his actions and expressions on the field (showing emotions). Dhoni has not done almost all of that and thats why he has a better record as captain and has won important titles for India.

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Ganguly played against tougher captains and teams. I have to say that - Australia, Pakistan, New Zealand, England, West Indies aren't even as strong as they were in 2003/2007. Sri Lanka, South Africa have actually improved, but have lost gems like Vaas, Jayasuriya and Pollock respectively. There's no comparison; nobody's better.

Does anybody even care to read what I write?

Ganguly captained the team when the monster called T20 hadnt yet hit the cricketing world. Its far tougher to captain the team now than before, because with T20 redefining batting in all formats (even the test matches), setting and defending scores has become a lot more complex and trickier. And yet. Dhoni has done very well and has won India major titles and has been part of India's rise to No.1 in almost all formats.

 

[AkshayS]

So, it was all done for fame. Alright. Maybe he knew he will definitely score runs that day. So, it was fame for taking. Right? Seriously, talk mature. He had the guts to come in at that situation and dealt with it beautifully. His free scoring allowed Gambhir to relax as he played his own self.

If he didn't knew he'd definitely score that day, then he should've sent Yuvi in who was performing every match. Talking about guts, every player would've wanted to be in Dhoni's position that day to rise to glory, He did it beautifully in the end, I agree.

Rise to fame, my foot!!! Its a two sided coin, if he comes in and fails at that point of time and if India had lost the game, he would have been crucified. It took guts from him to bring himself up the order even when Yuvraj Singh, an in-form guy, was still there to come out. Dhoni goes with the flow. When it looks like the team is recuperating and needs a more forceful push forward, Dhoni is the best guy to come out and push the team forward. Thats why he came when Kohli got out, because Kohli and Gambhir had already staged a mini partnership. But it was a highly risky move, and that too by him whose form was very patchy in the WC>

Doesn't really makes any logical sense, read it once again.
It was a highly risky move, so it was good, well it turned out to be good but was never a good move IMO.

There has been a big debate on whether Sachin really contributes as much to an Indian win as he is being eugolised to be (anyways wont go into that because I dont believe in it much and I dont want to insult Sachin). Dhoni's record as a batsman after becoming captain is far better than Ganguly's record as a batsman after being captain. Dhoni has had a better record as a batsman after he became captain. If you can bear with Sachin, Sehwag and the likes going through patches of bad form, why not Dhoni? He came good in the most important game of India's career, the World Cup final.

Oh wow, now you're questioning Tendulkar's contribution for India, amazing. I'll definitely talk to about this after this argument is over.

I knew it that you'd bring that up, the world cup final. god. For me when it comes to analysing a player's performance , it's just another innings. I'd like to bring up all the failures he had before that match.
Since Tendulkar Sehwag didn't perform in the most important game of India's career, therefore Dhoni > Tendulkar-Sehwag. Great.

It isn't easy to come at 3rd down in a world cup final, knowing that your own form hasn't been impressive and add to that, India's media would've been after Dhoni after the world cup, even if the result would have been same, India winning in the final. People would've always said that Dhoni didn't perform throughout the world cup with the bat but this man had the guts to come at 3rd down, make 93* and win the world cup for his team. I agree, Gambhir did play well but he needed support from other end and Dhoni provided that support.

So, he batted 3rd down, spanked the lankans, made 93 and he won the world cup. That's what I'm talking about, just one big innings in a big game and all his failures were ignored. That's how Indian fans and media do it.
And "the world cup 2011, yeah the same one won by Dhoni." fearsome tweak

Dhoni's approach about the game is amazing, he is always cool and calm, never angry on his players, even not in pressure situations and this is what makes him a great leader. He always gives his players a second chance, never does injustice to any player. Take example of Jadeja, well, I know lot has been said about Dhoni overrating Jadeja but the truth is, India were desperate to find a good all rounder and so it was important that Jadeja is given some chances but once Yusuf started to be more than useful with the ball, India had a balanced side and Jadeja was dropped from the team.

Well Jadeja was actually overrated by him and the end showed it. Same goes with Chawla, and everybody know that Chawla shares a good bond with Dhoni so he was in the WC squad out of nowhere over Mishra. That was the truth that many neglected including me because he wasn't going to make much difference in the end.
Yeah Dhoni gives his players second chance like Sreesanth in the final, amazing captain?

 

[Haarithan]

He surely is a talented batsman though.

Forget the debate . But how's MSD talented? Just because he plays the HELICOPTER SHOT on a rare occasion? He is far off from being rated a 'talent' . A talented player is someone who's technically sound , something that sounds opposite when you name MSD . Imho for India - Sachin , Kohli , Gambhir are the only talented players , they're the ones who are technically sound and possess all the shots in the book . Even Gambhir shouldn't be considered a talent given he is yet to master the 'short balls' .

 

[SaiSrini]

Doesn't really makes any logical sense, read it once again.
It was a highly risky move, so it was good, well it turned out to be good but was never a good move IMO.

Oh wow, now you're questioning Tendulkar's contribution for India, amazing. I'll definitely talk to about this after this argument is over.

I knew it that you'd bring that up, the world cup final. god. For me when it comes to analysing a player's performance , it's just another innings. I'd like to bring up all the failures he had before that match.
Since Tendulkar Sehwag didn't perform in the most important game of India's career, therefore Dhoni > Tendulkar-Sehwag. Great.

I didnt mean that. I never said Dhoni > Tendulkar-Sehwag. Dont manipulate my arguments . We are discussing more about why Dhoni is not overrated and why he is India's best ever captain. We are not analysing his batting prowess and comparing it with the likes of Sachin or Sehwag (I am not foolish to get into such arguments in support of Dhoni)

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Forget the debate . But how's MSD talented? Just because he plays the HELICOPTER SHOT on a rare occasion? He is far off from being rated a 'talent' . A talented player is someone who's technically sound , something that sounds opposite when you name MSD . Imho for India - Sachin , Kohli , Gambhir are the only talented players , they're the ones who are technically sound and possess all the shots in the book . Even Gambhir shouldn't be considered a talent given he is yet to master the 'short balls' .

Talented just necessarily mean technically sound. Talented means the player should be incredibly good at something, and Dhoni is incredibly good at quite a few things (handling pressure, hitting the big shots, running between wickets, pacing his innings, etc).

 

[Varun]

If we keep on discussing on the basis of what you said here Varun, the discussion will be worthless.

That's what I am actually saying, discussing who's a better captain is worthless, especially two captains in very different period of time, and leading different teams.

 

[AbhishekS]

Sourav Ganguly was fearless and stubborn. He was aggressive and never feared about the media or other critics, whether it was his professional life or his personal life. Ganguly consistently gave opportunities to the (then) youngsters like Sehwag, Yuvraj and Harbhajan, even if they would fail on a more consistent basis. Many slammed Sourav for such decisions, but we all now know how good the players who grew under Ganguly's leadership have turned out. Had he not been firm on his decisions of giving good amount of opportunities to the youngsters, Indian cricket would have been in a huge mess now.

On the other hand there is a guy with the Midas touch, Mahendra Singh Dhoni. Agreed that he is a very good leader and has the ability to take the correct decisions when needed, but there is something that goes unnoticed. He lacks the fearlessness that Ganguly had. Dhoni fails to give opportunities to youngsters. Under Dhoni's captaincy, if a debutant fails in his first match and then in another one, he is OUT OF THE SQUAD! You can't analyze a player's class by one or two matches. Every newcomer should get at least one or two series to prove himself and not just a couple of matches. Even the likes of Sachin and Dravid fail sometimes, but that doesn't mean that they don't deserve to play cricket anymore.

Additionally, the guys who get the opportunities are by same means linked to his IPL side. Why was Manpreet Gony given a chance to play for India? Why is Saha given an opportunity now?
There are some guys who disagree with the fact of the CSK links, but even they know that when a player plays for CSK, his influence on Dhoni and the selectors is much more than someone else who plays better than him, but for some other team.

And Dhoni currently has a better side than Ganguly to lead, so its obvious that he will be more successful. Had Dhoni been the skipper of the Indian team when Ganguly was (in the early 2000s), he wouldn't have been as successful as he is today. Its the team which wins the matches and not the captain. A captain just acts as a catalyst and makes the way easier for his side, but the initiative comes from the players who are a part of his team.

 

[Aditya]

So, he batted 3rd down, spanked the lankans, made 93 and he won the world cup. That's what I'm talking about, just one big innings in a big game and all his failures were ignored. That's how Indian fans and media do it.
And "the world cup 2011, yeah the same one won by Dhoni." fried chicken

Making 93 in the world cup final and being a match winner in a world cup final, still you don't want to ignore his failures? He knew that if he fails, the whole media and Indian fans will always criticize him by saying "that he failed throughout the world cup with the bat". It's just a matter of one day, doesn't matter whether you lost a match or not before the final in the world cup, if you lost in the final, it's over. Sachin OUT, Sehwag OUT, Kohli OUT and then comes in the Indian captain, out of form and desperate to make some runs and he showed immense concentration and patience and won the final for his team and the world cup as well. He deserves all the credit he is getting, in my opinion. It's your opinion, whether you like him as a captain or not.

That's what I am actually saying, discussing who's a better captain is worthless, expecially two captains in very different period of time, and leading different teams.

And adding to that, everyone has different views, you cannot expect every cricket fan to rate Dhoni higher than Ganguly.