Would Shakib Al Hasan make a team other than Bangladesh?

[Lassana Dias]

You have to take 5 or more, if the other bowlers are not even going to take 2-3. but look at the most averages when taking wickets. IND -42.55, SL- 40.81., only outstanding performance was WI- 18.76 (but we all know; the team WI he played was not even the WI A-team)

 

[cricket_icon]

Absolutely not my friend.

Firstly no their is no test standard all-rounder anywhere on the county scene that is remotely comparable to Shakib.

Plus IMO Rashid is not test standard (much less international standard) regardless of what he is doing for Yorkshire, at this stage of this career & recent selection show the England selectors feel the same way. Given that Tredwell (who is a division 2 player) was selected as the main back-up spinner to Swann in recent tours to Bangladesh 2009 & the world cup over Rashid who is doing well in Division 1. Whether he can improve in the future is a MASSIVE if ATS.

As another eruditely just put it "we're talking proven international all-rounder vs. fond hope. It's no contest!

i disagree with all your points. and the selectors are obviously wrong in not picking rashid and picking tredwell instead. its ridiculous. last time rashid played in a major international match (the 09 t20 championship) he bowled pretty well. was very underused and i am still confused as to why?

 

[Brook]

i disagree with all your points. and the selectors are obviously wrong in not picking rashid and picking tredwell instead. its ridiculous. last time rashid played in a major international match (the 09 t20 championship) he bowled pretty well. was very underused and i am still confused as to why?

Not well enough probably, seeing as

Batting
ODI - 60 @ 20.00
T20I - 10 @ 10.00

Bowling
ODI - 3 @ 63.66
T20I - 3 @ 40 with Economy 8.57

So hardly set the world on fire

 

[Kabooka]

And as proof- We are talking about the current Shakib so why don't we take his IPL performances in account so how is he doing in IPL?

IPL is hardly the parameter for measuring the true worth of a good cricketer. Look at murali vijay's overall stats and currently valthaty's stats in the IPL. While valthaty is yet to make it his international debut, Vijay has been a failure as a batsman in Odi's. Also the sub continental conditions are similar. Shakib's true worth will be measured in Australia and South Africa. There the fast bowlers will torment him with bouncers and the batsmen will thrash his bowling till no end (actually only 50 overs).

love this one. how many parameters do you want to set?

firstly, using those parameters, he's played only 14 matches, and 12 of them were from 2008 or before. hardly relevant to his status as a good all-rounder now.

why not mention england? oh that's right because when he played there he was the stand out bowler in two matches.

anyway

4th ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Multan, Apr 16, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

3rd ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Lahore, Apr 13, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

1st ODI: South Africa v Bangladesh at Potchefstroom, Nov 7, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Firstly I did not mention England because they are not amongst the Top 5 ODI teams which are South Africa, India, Sri Lanka, Australia and Pakistan.

In the same series against SA, poor shakib got pwned by steyn scoring 17 of a pathetic 33 and had his bowling thrashed for 67 ending wicketless!!!
2nd ODI: South Africa v Bangladesh at Benoni, Nov 9, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
He must be thanking his stars that the third match was abandoned or else more thrashing was in store.

Same story in the series against Pakistan.
5th ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Karachi, Apr 19, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Lahore, Apr 8, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Consistency against the top 5 teams, while playing away will make shakib a great cricketer. The same goes for players like tamim and imrul kayes. Since Bangladesh prefer only easy games, players like Shakib can never be worthy of top ICC rankings.

 

[Near]

IPL is hardly the parameter for measuring the true worth of a good cricketer. Look at murali vijay's overall stats and currently valthaty's stats in the IPL. While valthaty is yet to make it his international debut, Vijay has been a failure as a batsman in Odi's. Also the sub continental conditions are similar. Shakib's true worth will be measured in Australia and South Africa. There the fast bowlers will torment him with bouncers and the batsmen will thrash his bowling till no end (actually only 50 overs).



Firstly I did not mention England because they are not amongst the Top 5 ODI teams which are South Africa, India, Sri Lanka, Australia and Pakistan.

In the same series against SA, poor shakib got pwned by steyn scoring 17 of a pathetic 33 and had his bowling thrashed for 67 ending wicketless!!!
2nd ODI: South Africa v Bangladesh at Benoni, Nov 9, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
He must be thanking his stars that the third match was abandoned or else more thrashing was in store.

Same story in the series against Pakistan.
5th ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Karachi, Apr 19, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Lahore, Apr 8, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Consistency against the top 5 teams, while playing away will make shakib a great cricketer. The same goes for players like tamim and imrul kayes. Since Bangladesh prefer only easy games, players like Shakib can never be worthy of top ICC rankings.

Ahhemmm, is it 2008, now?

 

[Kabooka]

Ahhemmm, is it 2008, now?

BD has not played any matches against Aus, SA, IND, PAK in their respective countries recently, hence shakib has not really proved his mettle in the toughest of conditions against the most fiercest of opponents. Therefore all stats regarding Shakib are lopsided.

 

[cricket_icon]

BD has not played any matches against Aus, SA, IND, PAK in their respective countries recently, hence shakib has not really proved his mettle in the toughest of conditions against the most fiercest of opponents. Therefore all stats regarding Shakib are lopsided.

would agree with that. his just not tested enough against top opposition IMO. and on the point of rashid i know he hasn't set the world on fire but it's his pure talent and baility to learn im goin on. lets be hnest his better than yardy and co. with the ball. and england need a decent leg spinner.

 

[Brook]

would agree with that. his just not tested enough against top opposition IMO. and on the point of rashid i know he hasn't set the world on fire but it's his pure talent and baility to learn im goin on. lets be hnest his better than yardy and co. with the ball. and england need a decent leg spinner.

That's largely because the top teams don't really like playing Bangladesh very much.

Also I don't really know when you can say Rashid is better than Shakib when Shakib's Test and ODI averages are better than Rashid's domestic ones. Also they're practically the same age, so you can't cite Rashid's potential.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

Firstly I did not mention England because they are not amongst the Top 5 ODI teams which are South Africa, India, Sri Lanka, Australia and Pakistan.

In the same series against SA, poor shakib got pwned by steyn scoring 17 of a pathetic 33 and had his bowling thrashed for 67 ending wicketless!!!
2nd ODI: South Africa v Bangladesh at Benoni, Nov 9, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
He must be thanking his stars that the third match was abandoned or else more thrashing was in store.

Same story in the series against Pakistan.
5th ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Karachi, Apr 19, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo
1st ODI: Pakistan v Bangladesh at Lahore, Apr 8, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

Consistency against the top 5 teams, while playing away will make shakib a great cricketer. The same goes for players like tamim and imrul kayes. Since Bangladesh prefer only easy games, players like Shakib can never be worthy of top ICC rankings.

england are in the top 5. and have been for quite some time.

secondly, you didn't say anything about averages. you said find me a good performance, i found you three. are you saying scoring a 100 in south africa isn't a good performance.

thirdly, as i already mentioned. you are talking about results from 3 years ago, not extremely significant when a player is only 24.

this is getting boring anyway, you and lassana are pretty annoying. you might have a point but you're incapable of making it without doubling back or simply contradicting yourself over and over again. i'm fed up checking cricinfo's statsguru when it's obvious you're too lazy to do it yourself.

 

[angryangy]

The measure of a player is not the number of times he failed. That would put Border down near Walsh as a Test batsman. Even the greatest batsmen ever to defeat communism and cure cancer only passes 25 in about half of his ODI innings. Anyone can (and will) bat badly, given enough chances.

Nevertheless, we're at the point where scores of 75 and 108 against decent sides are discredited because that player also scored 0 and 5. When the arguments are increasingly specious and taking more and more space to reach their point, it's time to consider that maybe all the valid arguments have been made. Think about it. He averaged about 40 in that particular series. If it was one of these almighty players that play in other teams, you wouldn't hear too many calls for his dismissal from the side. It's no icon of consistency, but to offer a stalemate in the interests of discussion is pointless.

With an all-rounder, it was always going to come to this, even for a simple yes/no debate. Unless a player has exceptional outright value in one discipline, it is very difficult to reach consensus on that player's total worth. Even considering Watson, if he is the best all-rounder and would make most or perhaps every other team, does that mean he is flawless? Hell no. Watson has worse stats against South Africa than Shakib and also hasn't played them since 2007. So what does this argument achieve? Are we then arguing that nobody qualifies to be the best all rounder in the world? That no such player would, beyond doubt, make another team? Or is just a heap of irrelevant information?

To take it further still, perhaps the logic of deciding whether a player is good enough for another country based on how he has performed against that country is a little too paradoxical to come back with a simple answer.

So I end this thread in the interests of sanity. Everyone has had a chance to make their point, some good points were made for both sides and it has been mostly civil. Maybe it's worth asking again some time, but it's evident for now that this will keep going around and around with weaker and weaker arguments. Weak arguments lead to hate. Hate leads to trolling. Trolling leads to suffering.