19th Match, Group F: West Indies v India at Bridgetown

[sohum]

I still think Indian cricket needs some sort of overhaul, you guys just camp in the sub-continet and bash away on flat tracks as many other members have pointed out (but you seem to want to pick a fight specifically with me (I suggest you get over yourself tbh))

But we've played very well over the last few years when it comes to Test cricket, both home and away. Of course, that's because Sachin, Dravid and Laxman are still around, but the fact remains that you need 20 wickets to win a Test match. I don't see an overhaul necessary because we suck at Twenty20s.

Also, keep in mind that Twenty20 is as close to random as you can get. England may not even have been in the Super 8's if that match against Ireland hadn't got rained out, yet they've pretty much booked their place in the semis with two dominating performances.

When it comes to international Twenty20's, I believe India is second-last on the list when it comes to games played (I think Bang/Zim were last) since the last World Cup. So it's not as if we put a huge effort into preparing for it.

Now, you might make the claim that once Sachin, Dravid and Laxman retire, we'll be done in ODIs and Tests. But the difference is that you have a lot more time in Tests and ODIs. Here, West Indies went in with 16 overs of pace bowling (Bravo, Sammy, Roach and Taylor). We had to attack from the word go and our woeful batting against bouncers meant that we couldn't really do anything. You're unlikely to face a similar scenario in a Test. There's not going to be a 8+ RRR that forces you to pull a ball that you have no talent to do so.

So yes, we are a crappy Twenty20 team when the conditions don't suit us but that's not cause for overhauling our domestic structure. Our Ranji Trophy has yielded several quality Test batsmen over the years and right now in India, Test cricket is at it's peak compared to how popular it was in the past. You're really contradicting yourself in a way, because you bash the IPL and Indian Twenty20 cricket, and then you suggest that we change things based on those two factors.

sohum added 0 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

Raina failed in the important games here at Barbados. Today though he scored 32, I wont call it a success at all. The players who had a good IPL and who could have been selected are Sachin and Uthappa. Sachin ruled himself out, and Uthappa??? Well, he would have been the same case (or even worse, he is also a flat track bully and wets his pants seeing short pitched deliveries).

Uthappa actually knows how to execute a pull shot. That would make two in the team, the other being Yuvraj.

 

[BKB1991]

Considering Sehwag is injured...

1. Murali Vijay
2. Gautam Gambhir
3. Suresh Raina
4. Yuvraj Singh (Simply for experience)
5. MS Dhoni
6. Robin Uthappa (floater)
7. Dinesh Karthik/Irfan Pathan
8. R. Ashwin/Pragyan Ojha
9. Zaheer Khan
10. Praveen Kumar
11. Vinay Kumar/RP Singh/Fast bowler

12. Abhishek Nayar
13. Manish Pandey
14. Harbhajan Singh

If Irfan was playing I would have played 2 spinners in Ashwin and Ojha. Piyush would be nowhere near my squad, Bhajji would be dropped. If Vijay failed at the top, he would be replaced by KKD or Uthappa as an opener. Pandey could have been given a go.

The top 5 you selected is basically the same one that played.
The new inclusions in the team were:
Uthappa - Should have been there at least at the expense of Rohit Sharma. Have never really understood why he was dropped in the first place
I Pathan - You Serious? This guy was one of the worst bowlers in the IPL, and his batting was better than his bowling
Ashwin/Ojha - Definetly over Chawla
RP Singh - Shouldnt even come close to the Indian XI, is horrible when conditions are unfavourable. Having said that, he might have been better considering what the pitches were offering. On Flat decks though he is always murdered.
Nayar - He didnt even play in the IPL. Rayudu, Tiwari > Nayar, even if he is an all-rounder.
Pandey - I am one of his bigger fans, but after a strong start to the season, he didnt really live up to the expectations

 

[d4vin10]

The million dollar question for India is that once Zak retires, who the hell leads the bowling attack? Nehra? :laugh

Well as long as Ishant Sharma stays as far away from t20 as he can, then I would think that he would as he certainly has the potential to do so

 

[Cricketman]

Dhoni is a pretty good hooker (or will play some weird shot to get runs off it anyways), as is Vijay. I really expected more from Gambhir.

 

[Flame_Blader1]

Vijay a good hooker? Since when? The guy refused to shift his weight to the back foot when the ball is short.

 

[Cricketman]

The top 5 you selected is basically the same one that played.
The new inclusions in the team were:
Uthappa - Should have been there at least at the expense of Rohit Sharma. Have never really understood why he was dropped in the first place
I Pathan - You Serious? This guy was one of the worst bowlers in the IPL, and his batting was better than his bowling
Ashwin/Ojha - Definetly over Chawla
RP Singh - Shouldnt even come close to the Indian XI, is horrible when conditions are unfavourable. Having said that, he might have been better considering what the pitches were offering. On Flat decks though he is always murdered.
Nayar - He didnt even play in the IPL. Rayudu, Tiwari > Nayar, even if he is an all-rounder.
Pandey - I am one of his bigger fans, but after a strong start to the season, he didnt really live up to the expectations

Remember that T20 squad was picked midway into the IPL. Irfan Pathan and Nayar had some great performances in domestic games and are good LOI players in general. Irfan may not be the bowler he used to be but is certainly a better option than his brother or Jadeja! Plus, he can hit a long ball and play a controlled knock. Have you seen the amount of confidence Tendulkar has in Nayar, that alone must mean something. RP was our best T20 bowler in the first edition, had a decent outing iirc in the second, so I wouldn't mind giving him a go. Pandey is all talent all the time...I would have picked him for sure. His Ranji performances were phenomenal.

Cricketman added 0 Minutes and 52 Seconds later...

Vijay a good hooker? Since when? The guy refused to shift his weight to the back foot when the ball is short.

Event he ball he got out to today was a welltimed shot, just straight to the fielder. OK, it may not be the full on 'hook' stroke but he can dispatch the short ball over the legside boundary pretty well.

 

[sohum]

Don't see him retiring soon, but hopefully we'll have a half decent bowler by then.
When Srinath retired there was this phase when guys like Zaheer and Nehra, when raw, were our main bowlers. That was absolutely horrible but Zaheer soon rose to become the leader he is today.

I personally feel Irfan will roar back. He's still young.

I think your analysis is a bit off. Our pace bowlers are usually good when they were raw. ZaK in particular made a huge bang in his debut tournament (which was the Knockout World Cup in Nairobi, I believe, in which Yuvi also debuted) with his pace, swing and in particular, his yorker, which played a huge part in us beating Australia late in that tournament.

Irfan, Nehra, Ishant--all these guys were stellar when they started out. Every Indian bowler becomes really bad really quickly, after that, though. Zaheer is the only one who successfully came back. Nehra is sort of on that path, but he hasn't looked anywhere near as threatening.

I think the BCCI should institute a clause into player contracts that prevents them from appearing in endorsements, or at least mandating the number/amount of endorsements, until they get a Grade 2 contract. That would prevent the success from going to their heads, which has inevitably happened to all our potential fast bowlers.

 

[Cricketman]

Don't get me wrong, the talent was definately there (especially in the case of Zaheer and Nehra). Zaheer had a Waqar like yorker. But, they were still raw. They had the tendency to get smacked, and when the pressure was on they bowled flat and didn't move it much at all.

The 03 WC was early in both Zaheer and Nehra's careers. Granted, they had the company of Srinath and bowled very well throughout, but when the pressure was on against Australia in that final, they were not threatening at all.

Agree on the trend tho, they show glimpses of talent, crash, try to crawl back but only Zaheer has managed to do so successfully.

 

[Flame_Blader1]

I think India's Test and ODI bowling is pretty good considering half our matches are on subcontinental pitches. Ishant and Sreesanth should play tests only for the time being. While Nehra and PK are pretty good ODI bowlers. Don't care much about T20's. Just get some fillers

 

[sohum]

The 03 WC was early in both Zaheer and Nehra's careers. Granted, they had the company of Srinath and bowled very well throughout, but when the pressure was on against Australia in that final, they were not threatening at all.

That's pressure, though, and it's understandable. I was merely contesting the suggestion that our bowlers started out horribly and then eventually got better. All our fast bowlers started out phenomenally (when observed against the general set of Indian fast bowlers) and then eventually fizzle out.

 

[pcfan123]

Which is why it is already time to look for Zaks replacement, he is a shadow of the bowler he used to be and is not going to get any better

 

[Highlander999]

But we've played very well over the last few years when it comes to Test cricket, both home and away. Of course, that's because Sachin, Dravid and Laxman are still around, but the fact remains that you need 20 wickets to win a Test match. I don't see an overhaul necessary because we suck at Twenty20s.

Oh there is no doubt a few years ago India was a superb test team, however, the dynamics of the team has changed a lot since then, for one thing you're batting is a bit weaker and your bowling most definetly is.

I also feel i did not make myself clear regardingh the overhaul. I don't know enough about your domestic stuff, I meant the way emphasis gets put on the IPL and all these youngsters get called the next best thing, plus I do feel India needs to play a lot more outside the sub-continent (down to the BCCI)

Also, keep in mind that Twenty20 is as close to random as you can get. England may not even have been in the Super 8's if that match against Ireland hadn't got rained out, yet they've pretty much booked their place in the semis with two dominating performances.

When it comes to international Twenty20's, I believe India is second-last on the list when it comes to games played (I think Bang/Zim were last) since the last World Cup. So it's not as if we put a huge effort into preparing for it.

Oh yes, I'll be one of the first to admit 20/20's are a much weaker way to judge a player's skill in comparison to ODI's and test's (though even so they have highlighted the issue with the short ball)

I do feel though with all the emphasis (at least on this forum) put on the IPL it's kind of ironic that when it comes to the world 20/20 everyone suddenly seems not to care. Very hot and cold I feel.

Now, you might make the claim that once Sachin, Dravid and Laxman retire, we'll be done in ODIs and Tests. But the difference is that you have a lot more time in Tests and ODIs. Here, West Indies went in with 16 overs of pace bowling (Bravo, Sammy, Roach and Taylor). We had to attack from the word go and our woeful batting against bouncers meant that we couldn't really do anything. You're unlikely to face a similar scenario in a Test. There's not going to be a 8+ RRR that forces you to pull a ball that you have no talent to do so.

Oh, I totally agree, I still feel India will stuggle massively when the big 3 retire, especially as the youngsters in the side won't have really been exposed to seaming wickets in say England or South Africa. But this is one of those situations that you cannot predict until the situation actually happens.

So yes, we are a crappy Twenty20 team when the conditions don't suit us but that's not cause for overhauling our domestic structure. Our Ranji Trophy has yielded several quality Test batsmen over the years and right now in India, Test cricket is at it's peak compared to how popular it was in the past. You're really contradicting yourself in a way, because you bash the IPL and Indian Twenty20 cricket, and then you suggest that we change things based on those two factors.

Like I said I didn't mean overhaul the domestic structure, I meant the emphasis put on the IPL as it seems to be all the majority of Indians on this forum talk and care about and when India play on a pitch which actually gives something to the bowlers they get their ass's handed to them on a plate.

 

[sohum]

I'll just post a couple of points:

1. The only issue I see with the IPL right now is the unmandated salaries. They need to be capped to make sure that things are within a reasonable range and people still have a desire to play other forms of the game.

2. If you consider the domestic cricketers playing Ranji who haven't gained international recognition yet, you'll notice that they won't have those massive salaries. In fact, it is the international and Indian superstars as well as a few domestic bullies (Yusuf Pathan, Rohit Sharma) who earn the majority of the big bucks. For those cricketers, the IPL is only changing the financial equation slightly. The Ranji match fees had been overhauled a couple of years back to make it more lucrative. I'm not sure how it compares to a starter salary in the IPL, but my guess is that a good domestic talent that hasn't had international recognition is going to earn about the same in the IPL as in Ranji.

3. With regards to the pitch and getting their asses handed on their plate, like I said, Twenty20 isn't the best way to judge how they would perform on a Test/ODI level. I daresay that Twenty20 is more challenging in some aspects than Test cricket. For example, you may encounter a phenomenal spell of fast bowling in Test cricket that sees a few wickets tumble. But there's no pressure of run-scoring. There is the pressure of that bowler coming back, but you're not looking at a 10 RPO run chase. There's also the fact that bowlers will get tired bowling bouncers in ODIs and Tests. This is doable in a Twenty20 game because you only have to bowl 24 balls (or about 40 if you are Kemar Roach). If you bowl 3-4 short deliveries an over for 10 overs, you're likely to be throwing out trash towards the end of your spell.

---

These three points suggest, imo, that these players who are being shown up in Twenty20 may not have completely bleak futures in the longer forms of the game. Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman leaving our batting lineup will obviously have a huge effect since these three have about 30,000 Test runs in between them, but I think it is incorrect to say that our "new generation" is going to be walked over because of their short bowling weakness based on a couple of Twenty20 games.

 

[Dare]

I couldn't watch the game because of work but it seems the West Indies performed much better today then they did against Sri Lanka. As long as the fielding is good West Indies have a chance in every match but too often the fielding is not up to par.
I am still not convinced on Chanderpaul opening the batting or even being in the 20/20 team, same goes for Sarwan. Both of them are much more important to the team in the ODI and Test format and should not be risked in these 20/20 matches especially with both of them struggling to stay fit lately and the important series against South Africa being played straight after the tournament ends. They don't seem to be able to adjust to the format especially Sarwan who doesn't have any innovative or unusual shots and he has never been a guy who can hit the ball over the top.
I would bring in Dowlin and Barren Bravo in for them two. Bravo just needs to be given some chances and they should come in the 20/20 format of the game. Dowlin has a really good domestic 20/20 record and has done well in the two 20/20 international matches he played in.

 

[LongLegs?]

The top 5 you selected is basically the same one that played.
The new inclusions in the team were:
Uthappa - Should have been there at least at the expense of Rohit Sharma. Have never really understood why he was dropped in the first place
I Pathan - You Serious? This guy was one of the worst bowlers in the IPL, and his batting was better than his bowling
Ashwin/Ojha - Definetly over Chawla
RP Singh - Shouldnt even come close to the Indian XI, is horrible when conditions are unfavourable. Having said that, he might have been better considering what the pitches were offering. On Flat decks though he is always murdered.
Nayar - He didnt even play in the IPL. Rayudu, Tiwari > Nayar, even if he is an all-rounder.
Pandey - I am one of his bigger fans, but after a strong start to the season, he didnt really live up to the expectations

Uthappa was rightly dropped for bad form. His last few domestic seasons have been horrid...it's just this IPL that he was in form.

Irfan Pathan would've been a stupid inclusion.

Ojha/Mishra > Ashwin > Chawla.

RP Singh - Lol.

Nayar - No. Not enough match practice.

Pandey - No. Possibly his number one fan, and I'll say that on the basis of his last few IPL performances that he was low on confidence after a solid start. Them dropping him for no reason midway through the tournament didn't help and started his slump. Plus, he's a much better middle order player in any format than an opener. Can pull properly too.

I would've gone with something like this:

Vijay (Sehwag preferrably, since he can bowl some part timers too)
Gambhir
Raina
M Tiwary
Yuvraj
Dhoni
Uthappa
Bhajji
Zak
Praveen
Ojha

Mishra
Umesh/Vinay
Rayudu/S Tiwary/Pandey/Kohli (for experience)
KDK

If India get off to a good start, Uthappa will come in earlier possibly. If India collapse, Manoj Tiwary is a batsman who can take on the anchor role and then switch gears towards the end of the innings. Yuvi/Sehwag/Raina for the 5th bowler, which might be a concern with this. Anyways, they're all as good as Yusuf and better batsmen, so yeah.

I'm still a Jadeja fan, don't think he's meant to play this format of the game.

And, yeah, a salary cap for the IPL would be a good idea. At any case, most of the U-19s are getting only 20k I think. Kohli, Jadeja, Pandey, S Tiwary etc.