5th Test: England v Australia at The Oval Aug 21-25, 2013

And it says a lot when bit-part medium dobber Trott takes 1/12 after just three overs while the newbies Kerrigan and Woakes (to Tests) may well end wicketless and have "bowled so well" Trott was given the ball! :facepalm

Dammit, as I type Woakes goes and gets a wicket :rolleyes Not sure what Faulkner's at, or if talk of a declaration are serious. I'd be batting on with Smith still there, with Starc and Harris capable of hanging around and scoring a few runs, and England's fine ability to knock the tail over :D
 
Woakes and Kerrigan are both young guys, who are going to be nervous playing Test cricket and who are doing so on a flat wicket, offering them nothing. They're not going to come in and both take 5 wickets and look World Class from the word go. Plenty of good Test bowlers have started badly, so I don't see the need to be overly critical.

Like I said, it's the right time to try something new, rather than in an more important game.
 
Can someone who follows county cricket tell me how wide the gap is between the divisions? Just interested as in regards to Kerrigan I've seen a lot of people putting an asterisk on the wickets he has taken because they are in Division 2.


2013 - Kerrigan in Div 2: 47w @ 20.23

2012 - Kerrigan in Div 1: 44w @ 34.81

2011 - Kerrigan in Div 1: 18w @ 18.20 (inc career best 9/51 v Hants)

There's a bit of a difference between the divisions but it's not massive. I put the dip in average in 2012 down to the wicket at OT being an absolute pudding for a year after they turned in round. Bit more life in it this year.
 
Seriously? You'd pick Siddle (17) and Broad (18) over Anderson (20) ? Broad has had one good game, taking 11 wickets. People have highlighted Anderson's two off games (5/233), Broad had THREE (6/312) before he had a blinder last match and now he's back to just blind (faith/selection)

Fair does you can argue in Siddle, steady eddie bar his last three bowls producing 2/108 which is not great. That comparison does show the 3-0 margin is perhaps not too representative, England have had the rub of the green, better 'luck' with reviews and their use, and when the aussies have been on top the English weather has rained on their parade.

I would! Even though I picked that side when Anderson only had 17...sneaky :spy But yes, mainly because of quality of wickets. Look who Anderson's dismissed this series...of his 21 wickets only 9 have been top 7 batsmen (Rogersx2, Clarkex2, Haddinx2, Smith, Watson, Warner). Compare the other major bowlers of the series: Swann has 20 of his 25 wickets as top 7; Broad has 13 of his 18 wickets as top 7; Harris has 14 of 20; and Siddle has 13 of 17.

Anderson's been dining out on bowlers and cheap wickets: Peter Siddlex6(!), Starcx3, Harris, Agar & Lyon. He also got a couple of cheapies in the 3rd innings at Manchester when Australia were pressing for quick runs - Haddin was one I remember. In my view he hasn't done his job with the new ball at all. I count only 4 new ball wickets for Anderson in the series: Clarke and Rogers 1st innings at Trent Bridge, Watson 2nd innings at Lord's, Warner at The Oval. This Aussie team is meant to have awful batsmen. Why can't Anderson get more of them out?

Other factor for Broad vs Anderson - Broad has made a lot more runs.
 
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Woakes and Kerrigan are both young guys, who are going to be nervous playing Test cricket and who are doing so on a flat wicket, offering them nothing. They're not going to come in and both take 5 wickets and look World Class from the word go. Plenty of good Test bowlers have started badly, so I don't see the need to be overly critical.

Like I said, it's the right time to try something new, rather than in an more important game.

They're both 24, if they're being picked they should be up to it and "young" not used as an excuse.

And there's limited advantage to trying something new in a dead rubber when it's one game and it may well see neither picked again in a hurry. Cook, wunderkapitan, has zero trust in Kerrigan already, so bang goes that particular theory.

I'd counter the dead rubber notion with a run of games giving them a chance to succeed, not be pressure for them to do well from the off. Either way neither looks particularly up to the task even if Woakes pulled it back.

Cook doesn't trust either overly much in a dead rubber, what odds he's going to in an "important game".......................

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I would! Even though I picked that side when Anderson only had 17...sneaky :spy But yes, mainly because of quality of wickets. Look who Anderson's dismissed this series...of his 21 wickets only 9 have been top 7 batsmen (Rogersx2, Clarkex2, Haddinx2, Smith, Watson, Warner). Compare the other major bowlers of the series: Swann has 20 of his 25 wickets as top 7; Broad has 13 of his 18 wickets as top 7; Harris has 14 of 20; and Siddle has 13 of 17.

Oh, sneaky. Haven't the lower order been your better batsmen? ;) That's reasonable, but regardless who the wickets were, Anderson's dry spell was 5 in 2 Tests, Broad's just 6 in 3 Tests, regardless who the wickets were Broad wasn't getting many and I've heard you need 20 not just the top handful.

But I take your point

Anderson's been dining out on bowlers and cheap wickets: Peter Siddlex6(!), Starcx3, Harris, Agar & Lyon. He also got a couple of cheapies in the 3rd innings at Manchester when Australia were pressing for quick runs - Haddin was one I remember. In my view he hasn't done his job with the new ball at all. I count only 4 new ball wickets for Anderson in the series: Clarke and Rogers 1st innings at Trent Bridge, Watson 2nd innings at Lord's, Warner at The Oval. This Aussie team is meant to have awful batsmen. Why can't Anderson get more of them out?

I suspect he's also very knackered, overbowling 1st Test as wunderkapitan kook ignored Finn too much, and this Test thanks to the genial selection of Kerrigan and Woakes.

But I suppose it is refreshing that someone doesn't automatically take Anderson as one of the best in the world, I heard yesterday someone suggest the English opening bowlers rank alongside the South Africans.

I've long doubted Anderson is that good, and am not overly convinced who you get out matters too much if you're taking wickets, but I'd rather have Anderson open the bowling than Broad who for me would make a better 1st change bowler.

Oh and 9/10 of Bresnan's wickets were batsmen, Watson x4, Warner x2, Smith x2, Hughes x1 and while Agar isn't a batsman he is handy with the bat being his other. Bresnan's batting has been around the same level as Broad's this series although he's been the epitomy of steadiness with 1-2 wickets every innings.

And in the first two Tests he took the same number or more wickets than Broad, up until Broad woke up from his slumber in the 3rd and jumped straight into your and everyone's dream XI. Take out that 3rd Test and Broad returns :

1/128
1/30
1/108
0/54
1/26
2/54
1/40

Decent figures in the main if it were ODIs, the two hundreds excepted spoiling the illusion, but still 7/440 = 62.86 average is more typifying of what Broad has done this series (4/5 Tests)

Other factor for Broad vs Anderson - Broad has made a lot more runs.

I disregard that, mainly because Swann can bat and with a proper top seven you shouldn't be picking a four man attack on the basis of batting. I fear England picked Woakes on that basis, and he may even make some runs, but I'd have taken Finn or Tremlett over Woakes any day and every day.



Wasn't clever England indulging in time wasting yesterday, they should get penalised for that and ??? isn't enough. And I sympathise entirely with the aussies when they AGAIN gave England the chance to scurry off for bad light while the aussies appeared oblivious to any danger or the fact the umpires would just do that.

I thought the aussies would bat on a bit, try and make it so they don't have much batting to do 2nd innings and grind England down a bit ahead of the Ashes (II).

If they can get Root and Cook out early, Trott is out of form and the lower order starts at six with a out of form Prior fitting into what I suspect will be something like Prior, Woakes, Broad, Swann, Kerrigan, Anderson. Puts a bit of pressure on the top five, Boycs has been slating what TMS were discussing as picking five bowlers on the premise they'd bat first which was out of their control.

If we're preparing players for the Ashes then Bairstow or whoever will be among the batting should have played, if we're playing five bowlers and Woakes is one of them down under then it may not be 5-0 to the aussies again like the last time we were that stupid, but I suspect it may not be whatever scoreline to England..................... aussies look to be working their batting out, and on home turf I think the conclusion from this series will be it won't be nearly as easy down under
 
Saker has defended the naffest of naff selections, and contrary to long term theories and trying something new, he claims it was to win the game. I think he should listen to this, and change the word "sucker" to Saker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvgCGa0DGbE

David Saker said:
We picked a team to win the match and I think, two days in, it's harsh to say we haven't got it right

...........

We still believe we can win the match. We are going to try to go out there and put on a big score

I think it's right to say they haven't got it right, das kapitan won't even bowl Kerrigan and only bowled Woakes probably to avoid destroying his confidence and because he isn't quite enough of a donut to hamstring himself that much.

I know it's a PR exercise, he's a plank if he believes most of what he's said. I mean still win the match?!?!?!? If we score maybe 400 and skittle them for about 100, but all scenarios for an England win involve everything going pretty much right for us, wrong for them, and the more likely scenarios which lead to aussie wins and draws make it about a 3 in 100 shot with draw probably edging out an aussie win by say 50-47 (for an idea, not exacting figures or ever meant to be)
 
Bit of a shame that England had to bat so slowly, although I suppose we should have expected this from them. It was pretty clear they were going to bat like this given their bowling at the end of day 2, I watched a couple of overs where Australia weren't much over 400 and Cook had every single fielder on the boundary. I suppose Australia really only have themselves to blame though for being 3-0 down, but its only a dead rubber at least Pietersen might have gone out there and given his home crowd something.
 
Yeah I think England are not doing themselves or cricket any favours playing like this. Of course not every game can be a thrill a minute but this a damp way to end the series. I cant believe it is really neccessary or actully fruitful to leave and lock so many balls.

You need to keep the runs ticking over, rotate the strike and if you are out of form the best way to get back into nick is to feel bat on ball.

Every innings was a scratchy unelegant very negative one that just lead to each ones own downfall in the end......like bowling batting is also rhythm.......if you are spending so much time playing defensive or leaving you have no rhythm or real touch when you want to start playing shots....
 
They've been batting like this since Lord's. Grinding away. It ain't pretty but it might stop Aus winning a test.
Even at 3 rpo they'd have had another 100 runs by now.
 
It's the cricket equivalent of catenaccio. 3-0, series over, what's the harm in attacking the opposition?
 
And in the first two Tests he took the same number or more wickets than Broad, up until Broad woke up from his slumber in the 3rd and jumped straight into your and everyone's dream XI. Take out that 3rd Test and Broad returns :

1/128
1/30
1/108
0/54
1/26
2/54
1/40

Decent figures in the main if it were ODIs, the two hundreds excepted spoiling the illusion, but still 7/440 = 62.86 average is more typifying of what Broad has done this series (4/5 Tests)

I guess it just depends what you want from your bowlers. They all can't take 2-3 wickets per innings, just like you can't expect your batsmen to make 50s, or even 30s, each and every innings. If my team is Harris, Siddle, Swann, then I'm happy for a random performer like Broad to be in there because the other 3 are pretty steady. Siddle's returns have looked a little inconsistent, but watching him bowl I think he's always been pretty 'on'.

Yeah I think England are not doing themselves or cricket any favours playing like this. Of course not every game can be a thrill a minute but this a damp way to end the series. I cant believe it is really neccessary or actully fruitful to leave and lock so many balls.

It's also giving Australia confidence, knowing that anytime they get on top in a match England will just go into their shells. Must feel good knowing that when you're winning, your opponent doesn't want to fight back.

I know Australia's got not much chance of winning this match now (with the rain on the way) and I know we're down 3-0 in the series. But today, I'm glad I'm an Aussie fan. We play our cricket to win, and have given England a good shake in this series despite the results not going our way. Hoping for similar in the series out here. If we're not good enough, so be it, but we won't be scared of losing that's for sure, like the 'Cowardly Lions'.
 
They've been batting like this since Lord's. Grinding away. It ain't pretty but it might stop Aus winning a test.
Even at 3 rpo they'd have had another 100 runs by now.

It's anti-cricket, time wasting when fielding and batting. You could argue it is effective, like the more excusable grind in Pakistan in 2000/01 where England bored the Pakistan team into submission and took advantage when they collapsed in their 2nd innings to suddenly do a 180 turn and speed to 176 was it off 44 overs in the darkness..............?

Frankly 2-2 wouldn't do the aussies a disservice, England have dug in at a very slow rate every Test the aussies have anything like the upper hand and the weather has rescued the anti-cricketers. I mean hell, while you can argue anyone would rather win 3-0 than 3-1, they ain't going to win 4-0 like was mooted by the England coach on the first evening and how would they know what might happen had they batted remotely positively?!?!?!?!?

I don't buy into the "not easy to score" line coming out of the England camp, if they'd said they didn't think they could bowl the aussies out with the two lemons they picked in their attack then fair enough but they aren't even willing to acknowledge that mistake.

I mean this kind of embarrassing cricket, defensive fields long before necessary and grind out runs mentality is the kind of thing you expect from a weak side, not supposedly one of the best with several good batsmen and bowlers. And I find it very grinding to listen to Michael Yawn talk about being positive when he was just as bad if not worse.

England would have clammed up just as quick, maybe collapsed while batting under any kind of pressure with him in charge, but you'd think he had three slips and a gully when the opposition were 400/4 the way he talks.
 
Not sure what harm it would do England to let their batsman play some shots. I acknowledge that they are 3 nil up in the series but you would think it would mean England would have the freedom to do whatever it takes to win the Test match. If England won the 5th Test match, it would knock all of the remaining confidence out of the Australian team. Playing for the draw means Australia can gain confidence, knowing they forced their opponent to hold back. England's tactic of taking their time has worked when Australia's batting line-up has collapsed.

Anyway, England have still won the series 3-0, so they have played well enough to win the Ashes. Australia will be in a with tough battle to win the back the Ashes in Australia, against such a experienced and battle hardened team.
 
On the other hand there is an argument that says.....look Australia, whatever challenge you set us, whether it be a runchase or a rungrimd we will and can do it. Australia will have to ask itself questions......how do we get these guys out....we have masses of runs, great but if we cant knock em over it means nowt in the end.....confidence is a subtle actor.

I suppose in the end we have to say that it is also good when the fight gets dirty that England have it in them to play tough and grind.

However the fact also remains that none of the top order has really fired, really dominated, yes, Roots 180 being the exception.

Some say they are out of form......you could say Australia have forced that upon them, really done their homework.

Whatever we think or say the fact is even playing the way they did England won the Ashes. Yes the scoreline is more flattering than it perhaps should be.......on the other hand scorelines are what gets written down in the book.......3 - 0. Job done. If you cant do it with beauty do it being ugly......just make sure you do it.
 
It's a strange one with scoring rates. With an exception or two Australia's bowling is very snug and gives up few easy runs.

Root is new to opening in tests, so is likely going to be more cautious than he may otherwise be, cook and trott have always been stoic.

I think the plan for england is for the top 3 to grind a platform to free up the middle order to play more shots Which makes sense as batting against the new ball is when it's toughest etc. But the top 3 has pretty much been a complete failure all series, so when the middle order come in they are under pressure to scratch out runs so we get to a minimum of 300 to keep us in the game, rather than with the idea to get big runs quickly and put the opposition under pressure.

What I'm trying to say is that while the batting has been too negative, that's largely because it has been poor. If the strategy was executed properly it would be fine, but the fact it has failed has caused it to be even more negative than intended.

If your top three gets one century between them in 4 and a half tests they simply aren't performing
 

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