All-Time Test XI for the Top 8 Nations.

[ballers101]

^ Thank you and especially with Abha's record outside of Pakistan and England is about 30 so much for a great player plus he played absolutely horrideous in several nations like New Zealand, West Indies and most importantly India.

 

[Shoaib87]

PAKISTAN:

Saeed Anwar
Hanif Mohammad
Younis Khan
Javed Miandad
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Mushtaq Mohammad
*Imran Khan
+Rashid Latif
Wasim Akram
Fazal Mahmood
Waqar Younis

I don't think there is a need of a specialist spinner when our best bowlers have been fast bowlers.If conditions support,Mushtaq Muhammad is good enough to do the job.

 

[War]

Yousuf plays better in all the countries, Abhas only played well in Pakistan, England and Australia. However, Yousuf has a better average in every nation other except Australia. There really is no way you can tell me Abhas is better especially because Yousuf has played better in every nation except Australia.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

Again you have look beyond the stats Abbas played in tougher era for batting than Yousuf by far. More difficult batting pitches & better bowling attacks. I've never heard anyone who saw Abbas bat rated Yousuf ahead of him. He was called the "Asian Bradman".

Plus given the many highlights i have seen of Abbas i would agree with those who said that.

 

[War]

You say Yousuf "is unworthy of his 50 average" because he can't play in Australia. Yet all the guys you list have holes too. Lara, Sobers and Richards all have bad averages in New Zealand, Ponting had big strive in India. And what makes Sachin's 39 in SA, Chappell's 40 and Gavaskar's 41 average in England SO much better than Yousuf's 33 in Australia?

Nah i wont call these holes at all.

Firstly look Sobers record in NZ. Its not as if NZ had a good bowling attack in Sobers time. So him having his worst average in NZ is just one of those odd things. Since Sobers dominated the best of bowlers from ENG, AUS, PAK, IND in his career.

Same thing Lara & King Viv.

In Lara's time NZ where never world beaters. Check out his series:

94 in NZ: Average attack he dominated them.

99 in NZ: Pretty good NZ attack. But i saw that series & i recall Lara was playing very jaded. Since right after that series he took an immediate break from the game for about 6 months.

2006: He got some pretty great balls from Bond in this series. So i hardly fault Lara since he wasn't really out of form. Since just before this 2006 tour to NZ - he scored a brilliant 225 vs AUS in Adelaide.

With King Viv he failed in NZ in ONLY tour in 1987 when he passed his best days. So you can't call this a "hole" in his record at all.


On Tendulkar at his best im quite sure he averages more than 40 in South Africa at his best 1990-2002 (excluding his tennis elbow inury days).

If you add up the runs he scored in 92/93, 96/97 & 2001/02 it would be over 40. In 2006/07 he was still playing with his tennis-elbow injury. With the form Tendy is in right now i would back him to score good runs when India tour South Africa later this year.

Plus how is Gavaskar & Chappell averaging 40 in ENG bad?. 40 is always the minimum benchmark average a batsmen should have career wise or in this case or vs a nation - before one considers him good/very good.

On Ponting yes his record in India is definately a hole. But i would only use his runs in 2008 as guide since he conquered his demons of that in India on that tour.

In 98 & 2001 Ponting was not a complete batsman as e became in 2008. Plus in 2004 he barely played 1 test on a minefield while he was having an average year with the bat.

It's really easy to pick apart a guy's record - and that's my whole point. ALL these guys have played for 10+ years and have had lots of time to straighten out any discrepancies in their records - yet they ALL have some relative weakness.


For what's it worth I agree with you that Yousuf's average is a little inflated from what I'd judge it's true value, but that's no reason to slight him entirely and to imply he's got big flaws that your 'complete' players don't.

All these players as i showed above straighten out whatever weakness they had & really dont have any faults when facing quality bowling.

Yousuf does because he struggled to dominate againts the best attacks on his time (AUS & SA) when he was supposedly form. Thats his flaw, so he can't be rated that highly.

 

[ballers101]

Again you have look beyond the stats Abbas played in tougher era for batting than Yousuf by far. More difficult batting pitches & better bowling attacks. I've never heard anyone who saw Abbas bat rated Yousuf ahead of him. He was called the "Asian Bradman".

Plus given the many highlights i have seen of Abbas i would agree with those who said that.

You continue to avoid my facts. First off, if you know anything about Pakistan you would know that the pitches have been the same for many years. He played against more difficult batting pitches but he played terribly on them, the only nations he played well in was his own, where Yousuf play better. He played well in England where again Yousuf played better and again the only nation I think Abhas played better was in Australia, other than that Abhas could only play in Pakistan and thats it, Yousuf scored nearly everywhere he is a better batsmen hands down.

 

[War]

You continue to avoid my facts. First off, if you know anything about Pakistan you would know that the pitches have been the same for many years. He played against more difficult batting pitches but he played terribly on them, the only nations he played well in was his own, where Yousuf play better. He played well in England where again Yousuf played better and again the only nation I think Abhas played better was in Australia, other than that Abhas could only play in Pakistan and thats it, Yousuf scored nearly everywhere he is a better batsmen hands down.

I ignored thats stats, because as i said before stats dont tell the whole truth in cricket. The bolded is a perfect example.

Their is no way you can compare the quality of English bowling in England that Abbas faced in 1971, 74 & 82 to that of which Yousuf faced in 2001 & 2006. Abbas faced a farrrrr superior English attack in his time.


Plus I've never heard anyone who saw Abbas bat rated Yousuf ahead of him. He was called the "Asian Bradman" by those who played with him or saw him bat live.

Nobody speaks so fondly of Yousuf right now even with all the runs he has made in recent years - but rather he has the "flat track bully" tag around him. This is significant.

 

[luckyboy@10]

This is my first post on planetcricket.org



India

1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Virender Sehwag.
3. Rahul Dravid.
4. Sachin Tendulkar.
5. Vijay Hazare
6. Vinoo Mankad
7. M.S.Dhoni (C+WK)
8. Kapil Dev
9. Zaheer Khan
10.Erapalli Prasanna
11.Subhash Gupte()

 

[ballers101]

I ignored thats stats, because as i said before stats dont tell the whole truth in cricket. The bolded is a perfect example.

Their is no way you can compare the quality of English bowling in England that Abbas faced in 1971, 74 & 82 to that of which Yousuf faced in 2001 & 2006. Abbas faced a farrrrr superior English attack in his time.


Plus I've never heard anyone who saw Abbas bat rated Yousuf ahead of him. He was called the "Asian Bradman" by those who played with him or saw him bat live.

Nobody speaks so fondly of Yousuf right now even with all the runs he has made in recent years - but rather he has the "flat track bully" tag around him. This is significant.

Okay so he batted well in England so what, he still played terrible in INDIA and WEST INDIES. Like I said before Yousuf scored against Amborse and Walsh two of the greatest pace bowlers in West Indies history. Abhas played absolutely horrendous against West Indies, especially against an Indian team that has always had a weak bowling attack. Maybe not always but never a very strong bowling attack.

 

[Cricketman]

India -

Virender Sehwag
Sunil Gavaskar
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Vijay Hazare
Vinoo Mankad
Kapil Dev
Syed Kirmani/MS Dhoni
Zaheer Khan
B. Chandrasekhar
E. Prasanna/S Gupte/BS Bedi/Bapu Nadkarni

12th. Javagal Srinath/Saurav Ganguly

 

[Mike23]

This is my first post on planetcricket.org



India

1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Virender Sehwag.
3. Rahul Dravid.
4. Sachin Tendulkar.
5. Vijay Hazare
6. Vinoo Mankad
7. M.S.Dhoni (C+WK)
8. Kapil Dev
9. Zaheer Khan
10.Erapalli Prasanna
11.Subhash Gupte()

Welcome to PC, hope you'll like it here!

Mike23 added 3 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

Sri Lanka

1.Sanath Jayasuriya
2.Marvan Atapattu
3.Kumar Sangakkara
4.Mahela Jayawardene
5.Aravinda De Silva
6.Arjuna Ranatunga
7.Thilan Samaraweera
8.Chaminda Vaas
9.Rumesh Ratnayake
10.Rangana Herath
11.Muttiah Muralitharan

 

[War]

Okay so he batted well in England so what,

What do you mean by so what?. I dont like that response, him scoring runs againts that quality ENG attack is significant.

he still played terrible in INDIA and WEST INDIES. Like I said before Yousuf
scored against Amborse and Walsh two of the greatest pace bowlers in West Indies history. Abhas played absolutely horrendous against West Indies, especially against an Indian team that has always had a weak bowling attack. Maybe not always but never a very strong bowling attack.

Abbas did indeed play poorly againts the Windies especially at his peak in the 1975 & 76/77 series. One thing you should not is that in 1980 he was passed his best when it comes to ability to play fast-bowling.

But i dont know. The West Indies fast-bowlers still rated him very highly. Take this quote from Michael Holding here:

Best batsmen bowled at: It would depend a lot on the conditions. There were so many good players: Geoffrey Boycott, Sunil Gavaskar, the two Chappell brothers Greg and Ian, and it took different circumstances to get them out. On a flat pitch, Gavaskar seemed immoveable. Ian Chappell in an aggressive mood could embarrass a bowler. But the great technically correct players were Boycott, Majid Khan, Zaheer Abbas the more I think about it, the more batsmen come to mind.

Plus his innings in the 1979 World-Cup semi-final againts the windies bowlers in full-flight is always spoken off with great enthusiam. So although he didn't step up to them in tests, im not sure if he was really weak againts pace overall.

On his record vs India in India. I just that think thats one of those things. Since if he could dominate those same spinners in Pakistan (one pitches fairly similar to that of India). Its clear he could play them well.


Yousuf did well in the one series vs Windies in 2000. But one can make a strong argument that although both Ambrose & Walsh where still very good. They where still passed their ulitimate peaks (neither was bowling 90 mph anymore).

But i stand by my position that Abbas was better than Yousuf, there is enough evidence backing my position.

 

[SaiSrini]

India XI

Sunil Gavaskar
Virender Sehwag
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Gundappa Vishwanath
Syed Kirmani+
Kapil Dev*
Bhagawat Chandrasekar
Bishan Singh Bedi
Javagal Srinath
Zaheer Khan

* - captain
+ - wicketkeeper

Backup: Mohammed Azharuddin, Anil Kumble, VVS Laxman

SaiSrini added 5 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...

India

7. M.S.Dhoni (C+WK)

MS Dhoni in India's all time test XI? :doh Even Nayan Mongia and Kiran More would be better options (Kirmani is the best).

 

[ballers101]

What do you mean by so what?. I dont like that response, him scoring runs againts that quality ENG attack is significant.




Abbas did indeed play poorly againts the Windies especially at his peak in the 1975 & 76/77 series. One thing you should not is that in 1980 he was passed his best when it comes to ability to play fast-bowling.

But i dont know. The West Indies fast-bowlers still rated him very highly. Take this quote from Michael Holding here:




Plus his innings in the 1979 World-Cup semi-final againts the windies bowlers in full-flight is always spoken off with great enthusiam. So although he didn't step up to them in tests, im not sure if he was really weak againts pace overall.

On his record vs India in India. I just that think thats one of those things. Since if he could dominate those same spinners in Pakistan (one pitches fairly similar to that of India). Its clear he could play them well.


Yousuf did well in the one series vs Windies in 2000. But one can make a strong argument that although both Ambrose & Walsh where still very good. They where still passed their ulitimate peaks (neither was bowling 90 mph anymore).

But i stand by my position that Abbas was better than Yousuf, there is enough evidence backing my position.

Your going by technique and his ability to score against a team when his stats show a different story. You are trying to honestly tell me that if Abhas played in this time he would have a better average that Yousuf. Your talking about how he could face pace bowling and spin bowling that doesn't make one difference.

Abhas could have been one of the most technically strong batsmen to ever play doesn't make a difference though. Reason being that Yousuf has a natural talent to score big runs, the problem is that Abhas could play the ball very well but he would get out for literally nothing. There were batsmen like Miandad who batted extremely well and who scored over 50 runs a game. If Abhas was as good as Yousuf I think he would have scored somewhere near Miandad don't you think.

 

[War]

Your going by technique and his ability to score against a team when his stats show a different story. You are trying to honestly tell me that if Abhas played in this time he would have a better average that Yousuf. Your talking about how he could face pace bowling and spin bowling that doesn't make one difference.

Absolutely. Based on all i've read, eye witness reports from the people (players & journalist) who saw him bat & clips of him. With the amount of flat tracks & joke pace attacks that have been present in the 2000s era, i see no reason why Abbas wouldn't have averaged similar to Yousuf, if he had being playing in the last 10 years.

Abhas could have been one of the most technically strong batsmen to ever play doesn't make a difference though. Reason being that Yousuf has a natural talent to score big runs, the problem is that Abhas could play the ball very well but he would get out for literally nothing.

Yes i've read as you suggested that Abbas was one of the the most technically strong & great timers ever, but he tended to get out cheaply after good starts. But thats why it has also been suggested that Abbas given those minor faults, probably didn't live up to his potential, read here:

His statistics, excellent as they are, don?t do him quite enough justice. Zaheer Abbas in his prime was a sublime stroke-player. Imran Khan once told me that ?I have never seen the ball timed any better than by Zaheer.?

I saw an interview by Imran Khan a few years ago saying that about Abbas. So their is a legitimate argument that Abbas in tests at least didn't live up to his potential.

Yousuf only skill to score big runs is againts joke attacks on flat pitches. We have gone throught that before.

Again we have all these accolades by past players speaking of Abbas. No-one speaks of Yousuf highly regardless of all the runs he has gathered & as the years go by i highly doubt anyone who saw Abbas & Yosuf's career's in longevity would ever rate Yousuf over Abbas.

There were batsmen like Miandad who batted extremely well and who scored over 50 runs a game. If Abhas was as good as Yousuf I think he would have scored somewhere near Miandad don't you think.

Again this is all about stats. Minadad is the greatest PAK batsman hands down. He averaged 50 in an era of quality bowlers, so he earnt his 50+ average. Yousuf as we have discussed before averaged 50+ in an era, where he dominated average attacks on flat decks & was less dominant againts the quality attacks. So Yousuf's 50+ average isn't worth as much a Miandad's 50+ average.

So no just because Abbas doesn't average similar to Yousuf doesn't mean anything my friend for reasons i have already discussed.

 

[sami ullah khan]

Yousaf is a joke of a player under pressure. How many innings of him you can recall where he helped save or win a test match for pakistan against quality opposition. Ballers will have found his answer when he tries to search for such a feat by arguably the worst player under pressure i.e. Muhammad Yousaf