Education - Just Marks/Grades or Acquiring Real Knowledge?

[Highlander999]

It's not at all about marks and grades over here. We've probably gone too far the other way where no-one is allowed to fail.

I'm glad you think that as well Colin. Frankly, a nice bit of ground in the middle needs to be reached, where you have the pressure of getting grades, i.e. India, but the creativity and ability to explore your own ideas is encouraged as well, i.e. like here in the UK.

 

[King Cricket]

Are you crazy King Cricket ? IIT-JEE is one of the exams in India for which you require real knowledge and not cramming.

The top 1000 of IIT-JEE are really intelligent and hard-working students, they try to understand stuff and not cram it in. Just don't even think that IIT toppers are crammers.

varun_rustagi added 18 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

If IIT-JEE and AIEEE are scrapped, the lives of 1000s of students will be wasted who can really build our science up.
Though I think that XII Boards are waste, IIT-JEE should never be scrapped.

I meant the structure of most of the joint entrance exams in general to be the root cause of the problem, not one JEE in particular.

Maybe the IIT-JEEs are not just about cramming stuff to your head and all, but many of these so called joint entrance examinations are. Not to mention that although I have high admiration for the quality of teachers and faculty members of the IITs, I really detest the euphoria and hype surrounding these institutions, as if in case someone doesn't make it to such institutes, their careers are failures.
And the structure of the JEE it conducts every year is still flawed. As Kshitiz mentioned- suppose someone wants to pursue a career in Computer Science, but he/she will be evaluated and tested on the basis of the marks he/she gets in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics exams which I find to be pretty stupid. And I feel that in the midst of preparing for the IITs 24x7, and putting more emphasis on coaching centers (some of them start IIT courses from Class VII itself which is simply ridiculous!!), it is never possible to give stress to areas other than academics which are equally necessary for the building of a real man.

What I'm hearing is that they are gonna scrap all existing JEE exams and start an uniform entrance examination throughout the country where your schoolwork will get importance and your passion and calibre for the subject you want to pursue will be tested through a short common aptitude test or other type of evaluative methods before entering any higher educational institution. Instead of having a gazillion of entrance exams, I really don't find any fault in it if a country chooses to have just a single one.
If one is smart enough to get into the top 1000 in an IIT, he/she should surely be able to do well in the new type of entrance exam so I really don't see how our talent will be 'wasted'. What it will do is that it will give students more time to spend for themselves instead of drowsily preparing for an IIT exam and curb the influence of the IIT cram schools on the society which isn't bad IMO. :laugh
I don't think the West has anything similar to our entrance exams, yet their engineers are doing just fine.

 

[Kshitiz_Indian]

@varun - Mate, trust me I gave the JEE this year. It definitely wasn't that way earlier but now it has come to the same thing. Just that the books to cram have increased from maybe 1 to 10, but trust me, people do it.

 

[Prithvi]

Guys, believe me. I studied in one of most idiotic colleges of the world, "Narayana Junior College". They just need marks, not knowledge. We don't even have a ground to play something. Check out our schedule:
8:00-10:00 => Math Part A.
10:00-12:00 => Math Part B.
12:00-12:30 => English.
12:30-13:00 => Break.
13:00-15:00 => Chemistry.
15:00-15:30 => Sanskrit/Arabic.
15:30-17:30 => Physics.
17:30-20:00 => Study Hours.

Every Saturday Exam on Theory and every Monday exam on Competitive exam format (AIEEE, IIT, EAMCET)

And One week before our practical exams start, they gave us the previous years Records and asked to copy. And on the day of exam, before 4 hours the exam commences, they gave us the questions we were to get, made us cram that shitload and made us write practical exam. And its shame to say that we even crammed the values which we get.

And Thats the main reason we all got 25/30+25/30 in practicals. As per weight-age, you have to do the experiment explaining what actually happens to the examiner, which carries 5 marks. So those marks canceled.

For some selected students, college management paid bribe of about INR 50,000 to the external examiners and made them secure 30/30+30/30.

I just couldn't resist myself and did the experiment (Chemistry one) for which I was resulted in just 20 marks (Not even 25).

I din't even touch the Deflection Magnetometer and Vibration Mangetometer, but I answered that in my practical exam & secured 25 marks outta 30.

Not only our college, every college at my place is the same.

And in the Theory exams, I don't need to say anything. Students come keeping small chits and in exam, they just copy. Ohk, you don't copy anything and write by your own, you'll not even get 50%. The physics papers will be verified by Chemistry Junior Lecturers:laugh. So, IPE (Intermediate Public Exams) is one of the worst examinations of the world. Herd the same about JNTU (Jawaharlal Nehuru Technological Uni) from my bro, but I din't experience it yet.

 

[King Cricket]

Just came across a link which says that the gazillion of existing JEE exams will be scrapped by 2013. Not sure whether it's reliable though.

IIT-JEE likely to be abolished by 2013

The joint entrance examination (JEE) for admission to the Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs) is likely to become history from 2013 as the central government Tuesday decided to work on a common entrance test for all government engineering colleges.

“By 2013, we should have in place a common system for common admission into professional institutions in the country,” Human Resource Development Minister Kapil Sibal said Tuesday after meeting at least 20 school education boards from across the country.

Explaining the situation, HRD ministry joint secretary S.C. Khuntia said: We will work for a common entrance test for every stream. One examination for all engineering institutions, which means IITs will also follow it.

Nothing will be much of a benefit unless they can totally uproot this shitty educational system and replace it with a new one, but nonetheless, half a loaf is better than no bread.

 

[ARay]

Guys, believe me. I studied in one of most idiotic colleges of the world, "Narayana Junior College".

Binnu, when you say college? Do you mean like the stage after your 12th? Because a lot of people I know, seem to consider their 11th and 12th grade as college.

 

[barmyarmy]

ITA with dutchad. Education should be holistic and encompass multiple intelligences. We need people who can work with others.

 

[Gaurav_7]

Right dutchad, I wish 'highly educated' people here in India thought the same.

 

[Varun]

I meant the structure of most of the joint entrance exams in general to be the root cause of the problem, not one JEE in particular.

Maybe the IIT-JEEs are not just about cramming stuff to your head and all, but many of these so called joint entrance examinations are. Not to mention that although I have high admiration for the quality of teachers and faculty members of the IITs, I really detest the euphoria and hype surrounding these institutions, as if in case someone doesn't make it to such institutes, their careers are failures.
And the structure of the JEE it conducts every year is still flawed. As Kshitiz mentioned- suppose someone wants to pursue a career in Computer Science, but he/she will be evaluated and tested on the basis of the marks he/she gets in Physics, Chemistry and Mathematics exams which I find to be pretty stupid. And I feel that in the midst of preparing for the IITs 24x7, and putting more emphasis on coaching centers (some of them start IIT courses from Class VII itself which is simply ridiculous!!), it is never possible to give stress to areas other than academics which are equally necessary for the building of a real man.

What I'm hearing is that they are gonna scrap all existing JEE exams and start an uniform entrance examination throughout the country where your schoolwork will get importance and your passion and calibre for the subject you want to pursue will be tested through a short common aptitude test or other type of evaluative methods before entering any higher educational institution. Instead of having a gazillion of entrance exams, I really don't find any fault in it if a country chooses to have just a single one.
If one is smart enough to get into the top 1000 in an IIT, he/she should surely be able to do well in the new type of entrance exam so I really don't see how our talent will be 'wasted'. What it will do is that it will give students more time to spend for themselves instead of drowsily preparing for an IIT exam and curb the influence of the IIT cram schools on the society which isn't bad IMO. :laugh
I don't think the West has anything similar to our entrance exams, yet their engineers are doing just fine.

Very well said, KC. Really made me to think.
But I don't think IIT-JEE should be abolished, rather the subjects should be given according to your weightage of marks in that sector of science.


I guess the main problem for this rush for IIT is the inability of schools to provide the level of Info needed for IIT.
In American, Canadian, British etc schools, the education structure is like this that a music student is perfect in Music, while a dancer is perfect in dance and a Science student is rather provided with all the high level knowledge he needs.
Last year, I was just searching for some Olympiad level question on Google when I found a "Objective Question Paper" of a Canadian school for 9th Class.
Really, I couldn't do even 50% of it's questions myself which clearly stated that our school education system is lacking something.
School should really help those who wish to pursue their career in Sciences which is not currently happening in India.


All that Indian schools are doing is just making the students lurk in that crap BSE Hon. or more specifically DU.

varun_rustagi added 2 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

@varun - Mate, trust me I gave the JEE this year. It definitely wasn't that way earlier but now it has come to the same thing. Just that the books to cram have increased from maybe 1 to 10, but trust me, people do it.

I'm not saying you cannot cram but just that how do you know all those 20,000 were crammers. Even if some of them were, they'd be only about 1000-1100 in number.
Maybe someone whose rank is 60000 is saying that those 50-60000s were crammers which includes you who is not a crammer.

Though I agree with KC that toppers will always be toppers, no matter what the system is.

 

[Neo95]

Could you guys really enlighten me on what you mean by 'cramming for JEE'.I am just confused by such statements.You can probably cram for BITSAT and CET's.But how do you cram for IIT-JEE?.JEE questions are really high level unique questions.

And for the common curriculm and entrance tests,I have only heard about proposals.

I agree with most of the guys over here.Another thing that should be noted is that quality of education in most schools in India is not good,which makes most students go to coaching centers.

 

[King Cricket]

But I don't think IIT-JEE should be abolished, rather the subjects should be given according to your weightage of marks in that sector of science.

But what exactly is your main argument against a common aptitude test, if it is short and can really 'evaluate' the passion and calibre of a student for a subject? I think it is a right kind of alternative for the huge number of entrance examinations we have in the country. Couple that with Class XII board exams which take place at more or less the same time. And often, the syllabus of these various exams (at least in case of WBJEEE) vary like anything. If one chapter is in your syllabus for Class XII exams, a completely different chapter is there for WBJEE. So, in one hand, a student has to cram for Class XII, in the other hand he/she has to cram for WBJEE or other types of entrance exams, and at the same time he/she has to spend hours studying for IIT-JEE, which again follows a completely different question pattern. That's triple trouble for them! Will this immense pressure which we dump on pupils be able to produce anything other than a bunch of bookworms who would have no knowledge of the outside world and what goes on in it? From a student's perspective, the concept of SO many entrance exams is simply ridiculous! If there's an uniform system of evaluation to replace such stupidity, it will be real fair on the students.

Could you guys really enlighten me on what you mean by 'cramming for JEE'.I am just confused by such statements.You can probably cram for BITSAT and CET's.But how do you cram for IIT-JEE?.JEE questions are really high level unique questions.

I think our chief argument against the IITJEE is not 'students cramming for it' but its structural flaws and the euphoria and hype surrounding this exam. I don't know if you read The Telegraph, but there was a nice article published there a few months back which threw light on the way an average IIT aspirant prepares for IIT-JEE. One of them living in some distant northern state would fly from there to Kota every week to attend coaching classes only to return and attend school and private tutions for Class XII boards. That's ridiculous! I think it is only in India that a student has to take tutuions to crack the entrance exam of a coaching school which would again prepare them for another entrance exam (IITJEE)!!
I don't have a vendetta against coaching schools but the way they are trying to expand their business nowadays is really making me sick. Like I said, some of them start classes from Class VII itself which is just ridiculous! And in the midst of all this chaos, hullabullo and all I feel the personal space, the creative soul of a pupil just ceases to exist. How can you have any creative space when you have to remain buried in books till midnight prepares for something which is at the end of the day just some entrance thingy to an institute.
Then there are deluded parents thinking that IITs are the only source of talent in the world and pushing their child to cram schools and all regardless of what his/her own ambition might be.

Bottomline is that I simply hate the craze and unimaginable hyping of the IITs, and the way the coaching centers are milking this cow and raking in a hell lot of money from deluded families. (It's not that you can't crack IITJEE without coaching, how did people get to the IITs in the age when there wouldn't be any coaching available? :sarcasm) I detest the structural flaws of this exam as well, which I explained in my previous post.

The IITs may be about cramming, the IITs may not be about cramming- I really don't know as I haven't sat for the exam and neither have plans to do so in the future. But either way, the thing is that this exam is not clicking in the present society, and is only fuelling the immense rat race indirectly. Therefore it needs to go. Simple as that.

 

[Varun]

Like I said, some of them start classes from Class VII itself which is just ridiculous!

Actually it is not for IIT, but for NTSE.
Main IIT coaching starts from IX class.
Many of you will say that a student should start preparing for IIT for XI class. But we really notice, it is not very benefitting for an average student, though it may be ok for children who already study high level at their home.

And I really think (only some) coaching centers are really trying to make children better and not just making money, it is the XII class students who spoil the name of these coaching centers. They FAIL due to their own mistakes and then blame it on coaching centers.

At this point of time, we really need coaching centers as our school levels are drastically low.

 

[Kshitiz_Indian]

Actually it is not for IIT, but for NTSE.
Main IIT coaching starts from IX class.
Many of you will say that a student should start preparing for IIT for XI class. But we really notice, it is not very benefitting for an average student, though it may be ok for children who already study high level at their home.

And I really think (only some) coaching centers are really trying to make children better and not just making money, it is the XII class students who spoil the name of these coaching centers. They FAIL due to their own mistakes and then blame it on coaching centers.

At this point of time, we really need coaching centers as our school levels are drastically low.

That's the whole point though, WHY should you need coaching centers. Either the exams have to be designed to check the student's abilities IN the portions they've been taught (rather than adding new and unknown portions) or step up the board level to it.

 

[Prithvi]

That's the whole point though, WHY should you need coaching centers. Either the exams have to be designed to check the student's abilities IN the portions they've been taught (rather than adding new and unknown portions) or step up the board level to it.

I second you! In Andhra Pradesh, right from class VI, they start IIT Coaching.

7 years full of IIT coaching, and they don't have any basic knowledge on the subject.

Even I was given coaching for AIEEE since my XIth.

A competitive exam is one where they test ones skill on how can he perform with the knowledge he has, but now a days, competitive exam is where they're testing how much a child can cram up.

 

[King Cricket]

Actually it is not for IIT, but for NTSE.

No. Many coaching centers start 'Foundation Courses' from Class VII itself, which, accroding to them, is some preparatory thing which would "help" them in Class IX, the class from which they 'officially' offer IIT courses. So basically, it's the same as their IIT classes. I can even show you a link where an IIT coaching school owner has expressed his desire to start courses from Class VI!! This is seriously sick.

King Cricket added 11 Minutes and 22 Seconds later...

At this point of time, we really need coaching centers as our school levels are drastically low.

But do you really think that over-reliability on coaching centers is helping the cause? It's simply making our already low school levels 'lower'. Thanks to them, attendances in Classes XI and XII are horrible throughout the country. I have seen many a students say it across the net that they go to schools only to 'show their face'. How do you expect a teacher to teach properly if he/she finds that the majority of the students are not paying any attention to him/her as they already know what he/she'd be teaching courtsey the coaching schools.

But we really notice, it is not very benefitting for an average student, though it may be ok for children who already study high level at their home.

But even after six/seven years of rigorous IIT training how many 'average' students actually make it to the IITs? I was reading somewhere that 4 lakh 72 thousand IIT aspirants sit for the exam every year (I can assume that the majority of them have their names enrolled in a coaching school) and of them, just 5000/6000 or so get selected and the futures of the remaining 4 lakh 67 thousand are thrown to darkness. I think these figures say a lot.

They FAIL due to their own mistakes and then blame it on coaching centers.

That's a grossly unfair generalization. A coaching school offers them "assistance" from Class VII itself, takes hefty sums of money from them every month, and then, when they fail in an exam, it suddenly becomes their own fault?

That's the whole point though, WHY should you need coaching centers. Either the exams have to be designed to check the student's abilities IN the portions they've been taught (rather than adding new and unknown portions) or step up the board level to it.

Exactly. The fact that you actually need coaching centers exposes a humongous hole in both our educational system and exam pattern and further reinforces my argument to scrap the numerous JEE exams we have and start an uniform evaluation system where a student's actual abilities will be tested and schoolwork will get importance.