England Team Discussion

[RVallant]

Yes, IMO International squads should be built on four-five year cycles, with reviews after each tournament.

England's OD selection was terrible in terms of age, and the squad shouldn't have been allowed to get to that stage. Stokes should have stayed in his retirement home as well, it speaks to a flimsiness in the selection. Being firm they would have told him to limp on (or jog off basically).

I would clear out the majority of the team purely on age, get the youths in now so that they can play for 3+ years together as we go into the next World Cup. Keep Buttler, if only to train a young protegee, particularly for the captaincy. They could keep one other elderly player just for experience, but not more than that, because otherwise they'll slide back and get the OAPs back in for the next WC.

Whether the selectors will do that though... Honestly, I'm surprised the replacing/rebuild hadn't happened on that scale yet.

 

[noducksallowed]

Yes, IMO International squads should be built on four-five year cycles, with reviews after each tournament.

England's OD selection was terrible in terms of age, and the squad shouldn't have been allowed to get to that stage. Stokes should have stayed in his retirement home as well, it speaks to a flimsiness in the selection. Being firm they would have told him to limp on (or jog off basically).

I would clear out the majority of the team purely on age, get the youths in now so that they can play for 3+ years together as we go into the next World Cup. Keep Buttler, if only to train a young protegee, particularly for the captaincy. They could keep one other elderly player just for experience, but not more than that, because otherwise they'll slide back and get the OAPs back in for the next WC.

Whether the selectors will do that though... Honestly, I'm surprised the replacing/rebuild hadn't happened on that scale yet.

It's not surprising considering post 2019 the ODI format took a backseat and it was England's stated aim to win the World T20, which they eventually did in 2022. It was much like the obsession with CWC between 2015-19 at the expense of the test squad and format.

The ECB, by what's being talked about now, are going back to concentrating on test squads for the foreseeable future and Ashes cycle. You can expect a similarly limp defence of the T20 crown next year and a return to mediocre LO cricket for England in general in the coming years.

 

[Viper.]

Still feel England will have a good run in T20s in the years to come, just not in ODIs. They focus so much on T20s anyway, with the hundred being prioritized over RLODC. They will have Test Specialists, T20 specialists, but struggle in ODIs until they rebuild. They do have a few youngsters who can light it up in T20s so I feel this.

 

[noducksallowed]

Still feel England will have a good run in T20s in the years to come, just not in ODIs. They focus so much on T20s anyway, with the hundred being prioritized over RLODC. They will have Test Specialists, T20 specialists, but struggle in ODIs until they rebuild. They do have a few youngsters who can light it up in T20s so I feel this.

I'm not so sure about this...from the final last year, Buttler desperately out of form, Hales, Rashid, Jordan, Woakes, Ali, Jordan are all on the wrong side of 30 and I'm not even sure some of them deserve an international contract currently.

Stokes is literally on his last leg and no idea if he can carry on in LO if he plans to play more tests.

That is almost the entire set up gutted.

Brook, Livingstone, Curran, Salt and a few others are around sure but none of them have lived up to the hype without the seniors.

The cupboard is looking bare.

 

[Viper.]

I feel Brook, Livvo, Salt, Jacks, Duckett, Rehan, Will Smeed, Tom Kohler Cadmore, Banton etc are all capable of doing well in T20Is and will probably be able to translate into T20I form much better than ODI. They've all done well in Hundred and T20 leagues etc, and are all hard hitters and good T20 players.

 

[noducksallowed]

I feel Brook, Livvo, Salt, Jacks, Duckett, Rehan, Will Smeed, Tom Kohler Cadmore, Banton etc are all capable of doing well in T20Is and will probably be able to translate into T20I form much better than ODI. They've all done well in Hundred and T20 leagues etc, and are all hard hitters and good T20 players.

They all have great potential but England's success in the 2010s in tests and in LOs from 2015-2022 was not built on just potential but tried, tested and experienced top class international cricketers.

Yes they may all do great in T20 tournaments, maybe even ODIs in 5+ years time but like I said, expect just as much of a fragile performance by England next year.

 

[Supreme General]

tried, tested and experienced top class international cricketers.

But they all had to start somewhere and unlike the previous generation , they are going into a white ball team which is less conservative and negative and some of those are already established international players like Duckett, Brook, Livo. Buttler will still be around for a few years and probably another one or two.

 

[noducksallowed]

But they all had to start somewhere and unlike the previous generation , they are going into a white ball team which is less conservative and negative and some of those are already established international players like Duckett, Brook, Livo. Buttler will still be around for a few years and probably another one or two.

My point is that this group will not be able to mount a successful defense. Can they be world beaters in 5 or more years time? Maybe. Are they world beaters now? No.

I don't think any of that is necessarily a bad thing as I'd like to see an England test side as good as the one I grew up with from the mid 00s throughout the 2010s.

 

[wasteyouryouth]

My Bazball senses are tingling.

Although, I'm wondering if England are doing what we did when Warne was around, chasing any player that might be our Warne.

Axar destroyed us last time in India, could Tom Hartley could be our Axar?
Could Shoaib be our Ashwin?

Some exciting selections. Think I'd have probably taken Will Jacks though.

FOAKES

 

[WubbaLubbaDubDub]

My Bazball senses are tingling.

Although, I'm wondering if England are doing what we did when Warne was around, chasing any player that might be our Warne.

Axar destroyed us last time in India, could Tom Hartley could be our Axar?
Could Shoaib be our Ashwin?

Some exciting selections. Think I'd have probably taken Will Jacks though.

FOAKES

I am very excited for this series. I really want to see how Bazball counterattacks the dust mines that India would prepare. Would be interesting to see if Dharmashala pitch and outfield can last 5 days or not seeing how the world cup outfield was.

Hyderabad last hosted test match in 2018 so no idea what pitch will be prepared.
Vishakapatnam has never hosted a test match so no idea about crowd or pitch conditions.
England last time drew at Rajkot where Root, Stokes and Ali all three scored a century, however India did beat West Indies in 2018 the last time a test match was played at Rajkot.
Ranchi last hosted in 2019 where spinners steam rolled the African side
Dharmshala last hosted in the famous 2017 series against the Aussies where for a match Rahane captained and we won that game.

I am excited as England test side has power and grit compared to the ODI's and T20 side recently. Lovely series on the hand.

 

[Aislabie]

On the topic of spinners, I'm going to copy over some content from the Discord. Namely, my depth chart of English spinners:

1. Jack Leach (this means he is in the squad) - self-explanatory position at the top of this ranking
2. Liam Dawson (this means he is not in the squad) - must surely have been an automatic pick, presumably declined in order to get paid at the SA20
3. Moeen Ali - he's retired twice from Tests now, but if he were to become available again he might still be my third choice
4. Danny Briggs - his 343 first-class wickets don't get talked about enough - a really reliable performer
5. Rehan Ahmed - his Test performance and outright potential is giving him a huge boost in these rankings compared to his FC numbers
6. Matt Parkinson - never has a player been so mishandled (apart from all the other mishandled players)
7. Liam Patterson-White - 95 wickets @ 32.42, really solid numbers. Also extremely accurate
8. Amar Virdi - 123 wickets @ 30.71 are also really good; lets himself down by not being able to bat or field
9. Dom Bess - had the misfortune to become a meme, but takes his wickets at about 34 in the Championship or in Tests
10. Adil Rashid - he's not played red-ball cricket in four years and his arm will fall off if he tries, and he still cracks the top 10 of my depth chart
11. Mason Crane - he does have a higher bowling average than most this high up the list, but he has developed into a reliable bowler
12. Dan Moriarty - you're kind of into "wildcard pick" territory here; only 49 wickets but they come at 29 apiece
13. Josh de Caires - the same boat as Dan Moriarty but with an even smaller sample size. Also bats a bit
14. Felix Organ - he's a very low-usage option to be this high in the list, but 44 wickets @ 26.22 warrants a bit of attention
15. Jack Carson - a lot of people really rate him, but his temperament may prove to be an insuperable barrier
16. Liam Livingstone - he bowls both leg and off breaks very accurately, and has 43 first-class wickets @ 36.13
17. Calvin Harrison - a very exciting young player; early career numbers aren't bad
18. Matt Carter - I really like Carter as a bowler, has really good subtle variations - his fitness probably counts against him though
19. Callum Parkinson - a pretty good defensive bowler, but I think his placement and other similar bowlers reflects my own biases against most defensive bowlers
20. Tom Hartley - another defensive bowler; very similar stats to Callum Parkinson but from a smaller sample size. Has clearly impressed people to oust Matt Parkinson from Lancashire then progress to England honours
21. Hamidullah Qadri - an exciting but very erratic bowler with an average of 36.86
22. Jack Morley - a very small sample size, but he has 25 wickets @ 30.40
23. Prem Sisodiya - 16 wickets @ 27.68 should maybe get him higher, but the inability to jump Adam Salter in the queue counts against him
24. Matt Critchley - 156 wickets @ 39.26; he'd be a really good option as a third spinner who bats more than he bowls, but not as a specialist
25. Will Jacks - a Test six-for caught everyone's attention, and he is clearly a much improved bowler, but it's hard to rate him much higher than this on bowling alone
26. Alex Thomson - a good, forgettable county pro. He does a job, and then everyone forgets about it
27. Rob Keogh - 142 wickets @ 42.28 are massaged a little by a few rogue performances on genuine dustbowls
28. Luke Wells - in the Critchley mould when it comes to a bowling role, but such a hard working cricketer
29. Cameron Steel - a very similar cricketer to Wells but with a sample size of only 37 wickets
30. Samit Patel - would once have been far higher up this list, but even having not bowled a red ball in three years I still think he holds his spot in the top 30
31. Josh Baker - we've crossed the Rubicon now: Josh Baker is our first bowler with an average up near 50. He is not the last
32. Liam Trevaskis - almost identical bowling option to Baker
33. Luke Hollman - Hollman is a leggie who doesn't really turn it; averages 47.51
34. Nathan Sowter - 20 wickets at just over 50 in first-class cricket, but he is basically a T20 specialist
35. Tom Smith - hasn't played FC since 2021, but if he did he'd continue to be a non-threatening holding bowler
36. Shoaib Bashir - here's our man. I simply can't put him any higher based on what I've seen, or on his stats. Although the selectos must have seen something, so expect him to climb up towards the top 20 at least
37. Archie Lenham - just hasn't made Championship cricket work for him yet
38. Marcus O'Riordan - a good bowling prospect if he chooses to focus on it, but he's used so little it's hard to see him climb the list
39. Thilan Walallawita - first-class bowling average of over 60, only 11 wickets
40. Graeme van Buuren - his surface stats are quite good, but they're all from 10 years ago. He's never taken more than 9 wickets in a Championship season, and last year took only one
41. James Coles - never recovered from the Sam Northeast 400 game
42. George Drissell - 9 wickets @ 89.88

 

[wasteyouryouth]

I am very excited for this series. I really want to see how Bazball counterattacks the dust mines that India would prepare. Would be interesting to see if Dharmashala pitch and outfield can last 5 days or not seeing how the world cup outfield was.

Hyderabad last hosted test match in 2018 so no idea what pitch will be prepared.
Vishakapatnam has never hosted a test match so no idea about crowd or pitch conditions.
England last time drew at Rajkot where Root, Stokes and Ali all three scored a century, however India did beat West Indies in 2018 the last time a test match was played at Rajkot.
Ranchi last hosted in 2019 where spinners steam rolled the African side
Dharmshala last hosted in the famous 2017 series against the Aussies where for a match Rahane captained and we won that game.

I am excited as England test side has power and grit compared to the ODI's and T20 side recently. Lovely series on the hand.

Yep, after what they masterminded in Pakistan it's exciting to see what they come up with.

Saw in the India v Australia series that the Aussies seemed to, eventually, fall upon a counter-attacking strategy because runs on the board are better than getting rolled playing indecisively. I could see this be the England approach, particularly on trickier pitches.

The pitches that India prepare will be interesting too. Flat pitches England will look to take time out the game to force a result, dust mines England will do the same.

It should be exciting because that seems to be all England can do these days, whether they win or not.

 

[Bevab]

Yep, after what they masterminded in Pakistan it's exciting to see what they come up with.

Saw in the India v Australia series that the Aussies seemed to, eventually, fall upon a counter-attacking strategy because runs on the board are better than getting rolled playing indecisively. I could see this be the England approach, particularly on trickier pitches.

The pitches that India prepare will be interesting too. Flat pitches England will look to take time out the game to force a result, dust mines England will do the same.

It should be exciting because that seems to be all England can do these days, whether they win or not.

The Aussies would have won the series if they didn’t have a brainfade and succumb to the sweepathon. I’ve seldom seen a competent team self implode in that manner without much pressure from the bowling, it was just all around bizarre cricket to watch.

I’m half expecting India to throw down a few dustbowls and get surprised. The main issue will obviously be how good the third spinner is. Do they trust Root with those duties on top of carrying a batting unit that has two very vulnerable players of spin and Ashwin’s bunny or do they throw Bashir into the mix? (who I’ve personally never heard of).

 

[wasteyouryouth]

The Aussies would have won the series if they didn’t have a brainfade and succumb to the sweepathon. I’ve seldom seen a competent team self implode in that manner without much pressure from the bowling, it was just all around bizarre cricket to watch.

I’m half expecting India to throw down a few dustbowls and get surprised. The main issue will obviously be how good the third spinner is. Do they trust Root with those duties on top of carrying a batting unit that has two very vulnerable players of spin and Ashwin’s bunny or do they throw Bashir into the mix? (who I’ve personally never heard of).

The balance of the side they go with could be interesting.

I'm intrigued by Foakes coming back. I expected it, but have they picked him to play or is he just back up? If he does play, someone from that top 7 will surely have to sit out, unless Stokes and Root are going to bowl and they play Foakes at 8. They did do that last time around, Stokes opened the bowling with Anderson. That seems unlikely unless Stokes' operation was an absolute stunning success. Just reading a bit more, sounds like they don't expect Stokes to bowl.

Assuming Top 7 remains fairly fixed it'd be four bowlers + Root and whatever we can get from Stokes. So, two seamers and two spinners, three spinners if the pitch suits it.

Maybe Pope or Bairstow miss out with Rehan at 7, but I feel like that's an unlikely option, seven seems a bit high for him. It's why I'd have taken Will Jacks to be the Moeen-like bits and pieces player. Dawson two could have been a good option. Guess they'll be playing SA20 together though. Maybe Dawson might have turned down a spot in the test side but I can't imagine Jacks would've done (yet they didn't give him a central contract which is the most baffling thing this England set up has done yet).

If they produce pitches like that Ahmedabad one, Root as a third bowler is fine.

Bashir, seen him bowl a little, very surprised to see him in the test squad so soon. He seems very well-regarded though. They did the same with Rehan and I think that's generally working out well. Bashir and Hartley are both 6'4 and can both ball flat and quick. I'm assuming England are seeing that are being a point of difference worth having.

There's also I'd say a chance, at some point, Ollie Robinson ends up bowling off spin.

 

[Aislabie]

Bashir and Hartley are both 6'4 and can both ball flat and quick.

I'm still traumatised from the last time Engand picked a bowling attack based on inches rather than wickets.