England tour of South Africa 09/10

[Ollie_H]

Graeme Smith himslef asked Kieswetter to come back but he said that he wants to play for England.. So Smith basically said we want to pick you, please come back, but he denied. We can't really force a player to play for us, now can we? If that Kolpak rule wasn't there, he wouldn't have skipped off to England in the first place and would have gladly played for us.

Well, why are you blaming England, for a guy that doesn't even want to play for South Africa? If he was being picked to play in SA, he would never have come to England in the first place. It's a vicious cycle and you can't blame England for it.

holdenator added 1 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

It's very difficult. Also after the four years are done for eligibility, they are technically English citizens, so wouldn't they have to gain South African citizenship to play for South Africa again, since they chose British citizenship over the South African citizenship?

Nope, that is not true.

EDIT: If you want to read this.

 

[Fatal Shot]

He was being picked. He left at the age of 18. We weren't going to put him in the team at that age for obvious reasons. He was in the U-19 team, and it was known that he was the main contender for being Boucher's successor. I don't really care when one odd player leaves and plays for England, but when half the team is South African born, I get pissed, and rightly so. But whatever... forget it. I'm in a stubborn mood, and I'm not going to reason with you, so we won't get anywhere.

Fatal Shot added 3 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

judgement in the European Court of Justice in May 2004 has meant that if a person is a national of a country which has an Association Agreement with the European Union (countries such as South Africa, Zimbabwe, some West Indian Islands etc) and that person is in possession of a valid UK work permit, he must be treated for the purposes of employment as if he was a citizen of an EU country.

In the case of cricket, this means that a cricketer from such a country who is in possession of a valid UK work permit is treated as if he were a British or other European citizen and can therefore qualify as a domestic player for Competitive County Cricket.

There is no residential requirement, but the player must not have played cricket at first-class level or above in the 12 months leading up to the season in question, and must give up playing as a domestic player in his home country (although ECB can exercise its discretion to waive either of these criteria).

This does not, of course, mean that the player is qualified for England. The main requirement for qualification for England is that the player must be a British or an Irish citizen and, if he was not born within England or Wales, he must complete a four-year residence period.

That still doesn't answer my question about regaining citizenship, because technically they won't be South Africans, thus would not be eligible to play for South Africa.

 

[Ollie_H]

You have right to citizenship whenever in the country of your birth, I go to an International School in Switzerland, I know enough about it .

I don't see how you can blame the fact some of your cricketers wanting to play for England on us? I accept you might be pissed off, but all have a right to play for England. This is more of a broad topic than a few cricketers playing for a country, how do you actually know where your from? Is it based on your birth or your parents? It's a complicated question.

 

[Fatal Shot]

Obviously you are not going to be pissed. You're getting players like Strauss, Pietersen, Trott and Prior out of it. But we are losing these resources in more ways than one. When these players are young it's CSA who are heavily investing in them, and ensuring them the greatest possibility of enhancing their skills. The ECB isn't giving us a pay check for any of this. So when they just leave to go off to England, we lose all that money and time we invested into these players. That's not something we are getting back. The ECB isn't even compensating us for all the Kolpak players to add insult to injury. So we develop the players, and the ECB reap the rewards of all our hard work, while we just sit like dumb asses, wondering what to do. That's why I hate the Kolpak ruling. Take the players, but you spend your own time and money so we can spend it on more loyal players. We're already not the richest board, and this just adds another bruise into out pockets. It's not fair to us that they just leave like that, and so easily as well... But yeah flip it... Our arguing won't change anything.

 

[Ollie_H]

Obviously you are not going to be pissed. You're getting players like Strauss, Pietersen, Trott and Prior out of it. But we are losing these resources in more ways than one. When these players are young it's CSA who are heavily investing in them, and ensuring them the greatest possibility of enhancing their skills. The ECB isn't giving us a pay check for any of this. So when they just leave to go off to England, we lose all that money and time we invested into these players. That's not something we are getting back. The ECB isn't even compensating us for all the Kolpak players to add insult to injury. So we develop the players, and the ECB reap the rewards of all our hard work, while we just sit like dumb asses, wondering what to do. That's why I hate the Kolpak ruling. Take the players, but you spend your own time and money so we can spend it on more loyal players. We're already not the richest board, and this just adds another bruise into out pockets. It's not fair to us that they just leave like that, and so easily as well... But yeah flip it... Our arguing won't change anything.

What are you actually saying is quite naive, you make it sound like the ECB are sitting there and saying hmm.. which South African's can we take today, maybe if we offer them a hefty sum and they will come play for us. Now I don;t usually do this but I feel the case is necessary - IT IS NOT OUR FAULT, YOUR SOUTH AFRICAN CRICKETERS COME AND PLAY FOR ENGLAND. It is their free will to move to England, of course we're not gonna pay you for a few cricketers jumping ship off their own back! They also have as much right to be English Citizens as they do to be South African ones!

What you don't realise, is the counties that do play Kolpak players actually get less money than the one's who don't play any, so theoratically there is no reason to play them. Don't go blaming someone/somewhere else for your own faults.

 

[Fatal Shot]

It's not your fault, but you've certainly made it easier for them. Remove the Kolpak, and have them be Overseas players like they actually are and everybody's problem would be solved. They want to play for England? Go ahead, but instead of 50 players from South Africa going, only a couple handful can go, because they would be considered overseas players, thus limiting the amount allowed to go there in the first place.

 

[Ollie_H]

It's not your fault, but you've certainly made it easier for them. Remove the Kolpak, and have them be Overseas players like they actually are and everybody's problem would be solved. They want to play for England? Go ahead, but instead of 50 players from South Africa going, only a couple handful can go, because they would be considered overseas players, thus limiting the amount allowed to go there in the first place.

From what I remember of the Kolpak ruling, it's actually illegal for it not to be in place.

 

[King Pietersen]

At the end of the day, we're not sending out invitations out to all the SA U-19 players, they feel they're not getting the opportunities they deserve, so are moving to England, where they probably get paid more money to play domestic cricket and have a better chance of playing International cricket. It's your cricket board that are to blame for letting these players slip through, we're just taking advantage of the talent pool now available to us. We're not poaching cricketers from South Africa, they're choosing to live here and play cricket here.

 

[rahuldravidfan]

Actually, both Nick and Ollie make sense here. Nick, an obviously aggrieved SAfer, disappointed to see the players that could've played for SA going ahead and playing for England instead. And Ollie too makes sense when he says England are playing by the book and its an individual choice of the player to come play for England.

Talking about the game, what is wrong with Alastair Cook? He hasn't played a good knock since his 95 against Australia during the Ashes!

Came across an interesting stat about Cook-

Cook has hit just 2 6s in 49 Tests & 88 Inngs.

 

[MUFC1987]

It's not your fault, but you've certainly made it easier for them. Remove the Kolpak, and have them be Overseas players like they actually are and everybody's problem would be solved. They want to play for England? Go ahead, but instead of 50 players from South Africa going, only a couple handful can go, because they would be considered overseas players, thus limiting the amount allowed to go there in the first place.

Overseas players? The likes of Prior and Pietersen have English parents, in simple terms, that makes them half-english and half South African, so why the hell should they be classed as overseas players? That's just crazy. Far more worrying are the likes of Robin Peterson and Andre Nel coming over here as Kolpak players, but I doubt you mind that too much as their International careers are over.

Also, I really doubt that CSA put a lot of money into Andrew Strauss when he left at the age of 6.

It's all very well and good Smith asking Kieswetter to come back, but there is no way he's walking into the team, so suddenly without his Somerset Contract, he doesn't have a job. What's he meant to do? Sit around hoping a team in South Africa picks him up? And the best bit about that, is that all these 18 year olds will see players going to England and then being offered a place in the Team and they'll all want to go the same way, which hinders you even more. Oh, and Kieswetter left at the age of 15, he was only selected by the Under 19's after he'd moved to England.

 

[Fatal Shot]

I don't think highly of him as a batsman, but he got a ripper of a delivery from De Wet. His technique didn't really help him either though.

 

[Ollie_H]

Actually, both Nick and Ollie make sense here. Nick, an obviously aggrieved SAfer, disappointed to see the players that could've played for SA going ahead and playing for England instead. And Ollie too makes sense when he says England are playing by the book and its an individual choice of the player to come play for England.

Talking about the game, what is wrong with Alastair Cook? He hasn't played a good knock since his 95 against Australia during the Ashes!

Came across an interesting stat about Cook-

Cook has hit just 2 6s in 49 Tests & 88 Inngs.

You speak as if the man is known for his 6 hitting ability?

 

[Fatal Shot]

Far more worrying are the likes of Robin Peterson and Andre Nel coming over here as Kolpak players, but I doubt you mind that too much as their International careers are over.

Do you care that Monty Panesar is currently playing for the Highveld Lions? Haven't seen anybody going over the top about this.

but there is no way he's walking into the team, so suddenly without his Somerset Contract, he doesn't have a job. What's he meant to do? Sit around hoping a team in South Africa picks him up?

He's not walking into the England team either, so those points cancel each other out. So let's say he does come back. What will happen? No domestic SA team will try to sign one of the best up and coming wicket keeper batsman in the world? Apparently not right?

all these 18 year olds will see players going to England and then being offered a place in the Team and they'll all want to go the same way, which hinders you even more.

So the ECB has no faith in it's own players that they immediately place these Kolpak players into their teams after the four years of eligibility are up? You basically just said that England has no talent what so ever of it's own and that by seeing this, our player's are being indirectly encouraged to do the same? And here I thought that County Cricket was a great base for the English players to build up their skills. Silly me!

Oh, and Kieswetter left at the age of 15, he was only selected by the Under 19's after he'd moved to England.

Then according to the 'rule' he would already be eligible to play for England. But he is eligible to play for England in Feb 2010, meaning he became a working resident sometime in Feb 2006 when he was 18. Either you're wrong, or somebody can't do their job right. I dunno... =|

 

[stefan]

This whole kolpak debate is nonsense. People will go where they get opportunities. In KP's instance I don't buy his story though, he could have changed provinces first before changing countries. During the same period guys like smith, de villiers,steyn and the morkel brothers have come through.

KP is the only real loss imho. Trot had his chances with western province but failed. Yes he has improved a lot since then but we don't need him. We have a very strong top 6 for test match cricketer and guys like elgar,rossouw and vandiar are going to come through.

Yes it is probably hard if you are a white cricketer but there are still loads coming through the system. Some of those with english passports just like to take the easy route but that's there choice.

On kieswetter I don't really care Kuhn is a better player imho. Scored a brilliant 160 not out over the weekend after the titans were in dire straights at 90/5.

On the current test its looking like a draw unless either side collapses dramaticaly. Better news is kallis is expected to be able to bowl at Durban and Steyn is also expected to be fit. Management have said they could have played him in this test but felt it was too big a risk with kallis not being able to bowl. So we are shaping up nicely.

Cook's technique is still all over the place with the ball moving away from him.

 

[Owzat]

Could those debating Kolpak please do it in a separate thread. TYVM

England 88/1 (23.0 ov)

I think Trott might score a century today.Don't know why but I have such an vibe

I hope so. Not surprised by Cook's failure, he barely does enough to justify his place.

I was a bit surprised by Strauss' decision to field, kinda countered my delight England didn't play five bowlers. How is he aiming to win? (given he is playing four bowlers) What is the plan? Of course Anderson didn't help by not leading the attack as the most experienced bowler. Still it wasn't a bad effort to dismiss them for 418

COOK

Last 10 innings - 237 runs @ 23.70
Last 16 innings - 482 runs @ 32.13 (includes 160 vs windies)
Last 47 innings - 1588 runs @ 36.09 (includes only 2x100, both vs windies)

Cook has sustained his average with lots of get in, get out 50s. He has reached 50 nine times only to get out before he has reached 70 in those last 47 innings (1 in 5)