England tour of West Indies 2015

[Aislabie]

Do you still have Cook as Captain because you think they won't axe him, or because you think he should stay as captain?

I want Root as captain but I'm sure making him captain for an Ashes series would be a great idea.

A bit of both really - I don't think Cook is a long-term captaincy option, but I also think England need to keep him for the Kiwis, Aussies and Proteas, because those Tests would be about enough to end any budding captaincy career. After that, yes, he hands over to Root, but to do so sooner would be a pretty high-risk option.

Briggs deserves to be in the contention for the team. Not sure about playing Borthwick, so Briggs and Tredwell are the only decent options out there

Ali - not a front line spinner
Rashid - plays County cricket with one of the better seam bowling attacks in the country, so does a similar role to Moeen
Borthwick - Batting all-rounder, very much a part time spinner
Tredwell - Doesn't even get a game for his County as the front line spinner

We picked Kerrigan a couple of years ago because he looked like the best prospect in the Country, yet he had one bad game and hasn't been seen since. We can't expect inexperienced bowlers to come into Test cricket and be World Class from the word go, that's the issue for me.

All very true. The overriding issue is that there are no good spinners in county cricket; long gone are the days when Northants could pick Jason Brown, Graeme Swann and Monty Panesar (before he went off the deep end) in the same XI. Other options include Ollie Rayner (who is sometimes effective but a clear chucker) and Kerrigan (who has just been written off after that debut, and you can bet McCullum would just lay into him again).

So really, you're just looking for the least-worst option for a specialist spinner. For me, that's one of three: Kerrigan, Tredwell or Riley. You either pick the only spinner who looked any good in the West Indies, or the guy who's been keeping him out of his county team. Or do you take a chance on Kerrigan, who seems to be back towards his best?

Or you accept that there are no good spinners and just pick an all-rounder who can do the job. Maybe a Samit Patel type of guy?

Or you just do what Derbyshire have done and parachute in Matt Critchley like Bangladesh did with Jubair Hossain and hope for the best.

I think there's a lot of over-reacting going on in this thread.

Probably, but there are a lot of deficiencies in the side. I think the truth might be somewhere in the middle, but it's still a fun discussion to have.

Having slept on it and read some suggestions, my revised England XI would be more like this:

Before Woakes is fit|When he returns
Alastair Cook |Alastair Cook
Adam Lyth|Adam Lyth
Gary Ballance|Gary Ballance
Ian Bell|Ian Bell
Joe Root|Joe Root
Jos Buttler |Jos Buttler
Samit Patel|Chris Woakes
Chris Jordan|Chris Jordan
James Anderson|James Anderson
Stuart Broad|Simon Kerrigan
Mark Footitt|Mark Footitt

With four seamers, I reckon you can take a chance on one being a bit of a loose cannon; he got 82 Championship wickets last season though, and it's nice to get a left-armer into the side for a bit of variation. When Woakes is fit again, he comes in for Broad, and possibly opens up a slot to get a specialist spinner in for Samit Patel.

I think the biggest thing I find when I'm trying to put these teams together is that there are a lot of players who are very good county pros, but very few who you'd expect to really kick on and become top-class Test players. How many of these players would have made the 2005 side? Or even the 2010 side? There's something standing in the way of these able players being good enough to make the step up, and I wonder how much of that is to do with the idiots at ECB Towers, Bluffborough?

 

[cricket_icon]

I definitely think there's been an overreaction on this thread. The West Indies played so well on day three in Barbados and deserved their victory. Why does everyone seem to be suggesting going back to 4 bowlers? Why do we need someone to bowl at 93mph who can't control it?

I've seen some suggested teams with Broad, Anderson, Mills and a batting spinner like Ali, Rashid or Borthwick. How is that going to help?

England lost the match, I don't think there needs to be a major change in the set up so I agree with you on that. Personally I believe both Rashid and Ali should be in the side, Ali as a batsman who shouldnt be thinking about bowling too much and Rashid as the proper, full time spinner in the side. At least give him a shot in the ODIs.

If I was picking an ideal England Test XI for the next series, keeping in mind the current squad and current performances and also looking at the future, this is how I'd go:

1. A. Cook (C)
2. A. Lyth (one for the future and needs a run in the side, Trott is done and I'm glad)
3. G. Ballance
4. I. Bell (on shaky ground for me, he is too up and down and hasn't shown fight at times when experienced players should, give him notice)
5. J. Root (the best of the England young lot and extremely impressive, both in terms of performance and attitude)
6. M. Ali (a genuinely classy batsman who is being treated like a half way house, use him for his batting and treat his bowling as a novelty, don't confuse him about his role)
7. J. Buttler (WK) (not very convincing but the best England have so far)
8. A. Rashid (a genuinely good leg spinner who can bat very well, coming on leaps and bounds in recent seasons, he needs a shot)
9. S. Broad (walking a tight rope, same as Bell, even Broad's connections shouldn't save him from further crap performances)
10. L. Plunkett (not someone I'd have but he is better than Jordan and the best England's current squad have to offer, I'd prefer England to start looking at younger pace bowlers though)
11. J. Anderson

I know an ODI series is coming up and it's against Ireland (not to be taken lightly but there needs to be a definitive shift towards the new, which the squad selection seems to be looking at). I must say, I haven't been impressed with Ali's handling by England once again, him being dropped from the squad is a joke.

 

[bigred]

I always think you play your best team for the conditions. So the next eleven needs to be suitable for lord's in May.

1. Cook
2. Hales
3. Ballance
4. Bell
5. Root
6. Ali
7. Buttler
8. Jordan
9. Plunkett
10. Broad
11. Anderson

That's the team I'd go for. Woakes is injured, but if he was fit I'd be tempted to bring him in for either one of Ali, Jordan or Plunkett depending on conditions.

Not sure what I'd do in terms of the captaincy. Think I'd probably give Cook the summer, along with Moores and set them the target of beating NZ and drawing the series against Australia. If it goes badly, Root could take over with two years to prepare for the next Ashes.

Although I've stuck with a few of the old boys in my eleven, there should certainly be some pressure on some of them.

Hales should be given a good run in my opinion, but hopefully both Lyth and Lees keep him on his toes.

Bell is doing okay, but he is the weakest member of the middle order (More of a reflection on the strength of the middle order than his own form). If Taylor, Vince or Pietersen score runs then his place could be under threat. I think it would be difficult for Trott to come back; even in the middle order.

If Rashid is good enough to bat at either 6 or 7, then you could replace Ali with him, but from what I've seen, Rashid isn't a better bowler than Ali.

There's certainly a bit more depth beginning to emerge in seam bowling. Anderson is the only one guaranteed of his place. People like Gregory, Rankin, Wood and Topley shouldn't be too far away.

The only way Stokes gets in is if a proper spinner comes in in place of Plunkett, Broad or Jordan and then Stokes can replace Ali at 6.

 

[IceAgeComing]

People seem to talk up Borthwick a bunch - perhaps the problem with England is that we don't give spinners a real shot at bowling since seamers take all the wickets; so you can't really develop good spin. Perhaps that's a load of rubbish though...

Bell's an interesting one: someone on another forum that I post on did a quick look at the run distribution of England batsman that have got more than 15 centuries in response to us all going "why is ian bell on the list of england batsmen with the most centuries?". Its odd; he's got the highest distribution of single figure innings of any of them, yet also the highest share of 50+ scores of any batsman that's debuted since the 50s. He's pretty much the definition of "if you don't get him out early..."

e: also Samit? doesn't that suggest desperation

 

[_Sam_]

Sticking someone like Root with practically no captaincy experience into the deep end with the series we have lined up would just be a recipe for disaster.

 

[MUFC1987]

Sticking someone like Root with practically no captaincy experience into the deep end with the series we have lined up would just be a recipe for disaster.

Agreed entirely on this. If anything, the role we should be grooming Root for is the opening slot, as that would solve that problem as well as opening another slot in the middle order for the likes of Taylor or Ali and Stokes to both play. I don't think he's good enough as an opener though, so just get him to stick with what he's doing. Cos we need that middle order firing.

As for the spinners, we just haven't given any of the good, young County players a decent go. Even in limited overs cricket, we had plenty of opportunities to give Briggs a go, yet we went back to the likes of Tredwell. I still maintain that there is plenty of ability in County cricket, we just need to give players a decent go, rather than expecting every bowler to come in and average under 25 from the word go and every batsman to average 45 from his first Test.

 

[blockerdave]

In the last 12 months, in white ball cricket we were out seam bowled by Bangladesh, in red ball cricket we were out seam bowled in England by Sri Lanka, we were out seam bowled by Ishant Sharma, with the exception of Jimmy we were out bowled by WI. How is more of the same going to help?

You may call it an overreaction, I'a say you have your head in the sand.

People are also being deliberately obtuse - nobody is calling for exclusively fast bowlers, but the inclusion of a fast bowler in a more balanced attack. Philander is a ludicrous example given he plays in an attack with two quicker bowlers, likewise Jimmy is a pointless example since a) nobody is advocating dropping him, and b) well he didn't manage to win us that series on his own, did he?

England's success in the Strauss era 09-12 admittedly came without real pace in the attack, but it came via extremely attritional, often turgid cricket that I wouldn't like to see us go back to, we had a world class spinner, and the relative strength of teams we played then versus today was arguably much lower (especially for Aus).

 

[blockerdave]

Sticking someone like Root with practically no captaincy experience into the deep end with the series we have lined up would just be a recipe for disaster.

Almost nobody in the England squad - certainly none picked young - has captaincy experience because they don't play county cricket. The days of having 5 or 6 county captains in your side are long gone.

If you're insisting they have captaincy experience, well you've got Taylor and that's it. Even then his captaincy experience is limited largely to list A

 

[cooks1st100]

Some great reading and opinions from you guys. It's obvious that Ali is just not good enough and I'm fed up with hearing the "work in progress" line. If that's what he genuinely is then let him return to county cricket and learn his trade. It's a shame about Monty, hopefully he will get his head together and his form back as a result. As for replacement spinners I haven't seen enough County Cricket this last 5 years or so to be able to comment, but how people can suggest a bowler with first class figures above 40 (Patel) is beyond me.

I also don't quite get this Root for captain opinion. I've been aware of this lad since a mate from Yorkshire sent me a message to keep an eye out for him when he was 18, but where is the evidence that he would make a good captain? I only know of a couple of games in which he captained Yorkshire so will he become another "work in progress"? Knowing this England set up it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Anyway well done to the "mediocre" West Indies they've got some good young talent there and these last few days have been great viewing and the reason I love Tests over all other forms of cricket.

 

[_Sam_]

Almost nobody in the England squad - certainly none picked young - has captaincy experience because they don't play county cricket. The days of having 5 or 6 county captains in your side are long gone.

If you're insisting they have captaincy experience, well you've got Taylor and that's it. Even then his captaincy experience is limited largely to list A

Understand that the only players anywhere near any sort of England squad at the moment with any sort of captaincy experience are Taylor and Vince really yes, but even though the point still stands that chucking someone into the fixtures lined up is a high chance of something that could make or break him. In the situation we're in now I really think it's gotta be something gradual, perhaps through the use of limited overs squads or a gentler introduction.

 

[blockerdave]

Understand that the only players anywhere near any sort of England squad at the moment with any sort of captaincy experience are Taylor and Vince really yes, but even though the point still stands that chucking someone into the fixtures lined up is a high chance of something that could make or break him. In the situation we're in now I really think it's gotta be something gradual, perhaps through the use of limited overs squads or a gentler introduction.

There is merit in that but Cook simply has to go. You could also argue the expectation on England is so low (ie that we will be smashed from pillar to post) that he would be hard pressed not to exceed them.

 

[blockerdave]

I also don't quite get this Root for captain opinion.

Simply, because Cook has to go. Nobody in the current squad has much captaincy experience because they don't play county cricket, so we have to pick somebody. He seems to have a good temperament.

 

[swacker]

I'll no doubt get shot down in flames for this, but I'd like to see the skipper and coach replaced. Cook is just not bold or aggressive enough in my opinion. The persistence with Trott and Stokes and two part time spinners for example; the refusal to use Lyth or Rashid (in the latter's case, when since Swann's retirement we haven't employed a proper frontline spinner, unless you believe Tredwell is).

 

[MUFC1987]

In the last 12 months, in white ball cricket we were out seam bowled by Bangladesh, in red ball cricket we were out seam bowled in England by Sri Lanka, we were out seam bowled by Ishant Sharma, with the exception of Jimmy we were out bowled by WI. How is more of the same going to help?

You may call it an overreaction, I'a say you have your head in the sand.

People are also being deliberately obtuse - nobody is calling for exclusively fast bowlers, but the inclusion of a fast bowler in a more balanced attack. Philander is a ludicrous example given he plays in an attack with two quicker bowlers, likewise Jimmy is a pointless example since a) nobody is advocating dropping him, and b) well he didn't manage to win us that series on his own, did he?

Bangladesh and Sri Lanka will all those express bowlers they have? My point is and will remain the same. You're better off picking the good younger bowlers who bowl well in County Cricket, like a Woakes, over the likes of Mills, who has pace but nothing else. You can be as quick as you like, if you're averaging close to 40 with the ball against County Pros, you're not going to suddenly average 25 in Tests, because the batsman down the other end is World class as opposed to the 50th best batsman in England. Ability is more important than speed.

There are plenty of bowlers in County cricket, doing well who deserve a go. I don't see the need to bypass them and go to someone who is struggling for wickets just because he bowls 4mph quicker.

 

[IceAgeComing]

The root for captaincy thing confuses me because it seems like the same approach taken with Cook (take the best batsmen and make them captain) and that's worked oh so well for them

I'll no doubt get shot down in flames for this, but I'd like to see the skipper and coach replaced. Cook is just not bold or aggressive enough in my opinion. The persistence with Trott and Stokes and two part time spinners for example; the refusal to use Lyth or Rashid (in the latter's case, when since Swann's retirement we haven't employed a proper frontline spinner, unless you believe Tredwell is).

this is actually the majority opinion at the moment