General Cricket Discussion

[Bevab]

At this point there is no debate that Virat Kohli is right up there with Kapil Dev as the best cricketer India has ever produced. Virat is already the best batsman all time batsman from India by a mile, Rahul Dravid coming in a distant 2nd!

I have my qualms with Kohli being the best ever India has produced already but Rahul Dravid second? This post-retirement overrating of Dravid is something else, the bloke was continually underrated when he was active and has been elevated to levels since then his record really doesn't deserve.

 

[Satan666]

I have my qualms with Kohli being the best ever India has produced already but Rahul Dravid second? This post-retirement overrating of Dravid is something else, the bloke was continually underrated when he was active and has been elevated to levels since then his record really doesn't deserve.

Really? While in his playing days Dravid was always hailed as a great batsman. The guy wasnt nicknamed ‘The Wall’ for nothing in a time of some great fastbowlers and spinners all around the world Dravid could not be moved from the crease at all. He averages 52 over 164 tests and made 36 centuries, yet youre posting this BS!

I do agree with you that he was underrated while playing perhaps due to the fact that most were obsessed with Tendulkar’s shenanigans!

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

I do agree with you that he was underrated while playing perhaps due to the fact that most were obsessed with Tendulkar’s shenanigans!

Yet Tendulkar averages more than him and was more consistent run scorer than him. 2011 England tour is the only series where Dravid outplayed Tendulkar in all aspects. This again is no disrespect to Dravid because I equally liked watching him bat. But Tendulkar was just one of the most beautiful batsman to watch and he did not sacrifice on his consistency when we talk about his batting. Dravid was equally great in his own way but I would rate Sachin above him.

Calling Dravid better than Tendulkar is like saying Pujara is better than Kohli. Both Dravid and Pujara are more important to India's Test success but Sachin and Kohli are better batsmen than those 2.

 

[Bevab]

Really? While in his playing days Dravid was always hailed as a great batsman. The guy wasnt nicknamed ‘The Wall’ for nothing in a time of some great fastbowlers and spinners all around the world Dravid could not be moved from the crease at all. He averages 52 over 164 tests and made 36 centuries, yet youre posting this BS!

I do agree with you that he was underrated while playing perhaps due to the fact that most were obsessed with Tendulkar’s shenanigans!

How is it BS when his own teammate was objectively better than him? Not to mention a certain opener in the 70s who had a weaker side at his disposal. And there has been no mention of the Vijays from the WW2 era. Cut down on the snarkiness. Nobody's saying Dravid was bad, calling him the greatest or the second greatest India has seen which has happened quite frequently since his retirement is the funny thing as none of it happened when he was playing. All I remember was fans criticizing him for being too defensive which I also find to be absolutely stupid given he often had to play without a steady opener ahead of him with the exclusion of Sehwag and latter day Gambhir.

 

[Satan666]

Yet Tendulkar averages more than him and was more consistent run scorer than him. 2011 England tour is the only series where Dravid outplayed Tendulkar in all aspects. This again is no disrespect to Dravid because I equally liked watching him bat. But Tendulkar was just one of the most beautiful batsman to watch and he did not sacrifice on his consistency when we talk about his batting. Dravid was equally great in his own way but I would rate Sachin above him.

Calling Dravid better than Tendulkar is like saying Pujara is better than Kohli. Both Dravid and Pujara are more important to India's Test success but Sachin and Kohli are better batsmen than those 2.

Yet Tendulkar averages more than him and was more consistent run scorer than him 2011 England tour is the only series where Dravid outplayed Tendulkar in all aspects.

Yes Dravid averages 52 odd and Tendulkar 53 odd..........thats a definite comparison? Tendulkar not doing well in an overseas series in one of the most difficult playing conditions in the world? Whats new?

This again is no disrespect to Dravid because I equally liked watching him bat.

Indeed I liked watching him bat as well, from the post below it is apparent your recollections of early cricket would've been in the 2010s so Dravid must have left you in awe since his retirements from cricket came in 2011/Jan 2012. Sad you had the opportunity to see Tendulkar against the 'weakest bowling lineup'.

I think since I belong to the 2010s era I would have a greater resemblence to what current fans of my age would think.

For me I grew up watching the likes of Tendulkar, Ponting and Kallis well into their decline. Ponting was probably the worst amongst the 4 players I mentioned since the time I started watching Test Cricket. You could argue that Tendulkar was played for more time than he could've but let me tell you that he had lot of scores in excess of 50s post 2011 World Cup and all those went unnoticed because players like Pujara, Kohli & Dhoni were doing better. Talking about Kallis I still wonder that he had more years of Cricket left in him but he left a little too early. I would say that Kumar Sangakkara also had atleast 3-4 years of Cricket left with him.

Amongst the bowlers I think there were hardly ones from the 2000s left. I believe I grew up watching the weakest bowling line-ups in Cricket. There were only 3-4 genuine bowlers namely James Anderson, Stuart Broad, Dale Steyn & Vernon Philander. Morne Morkel, Mitchell Johnson, Mitchell Starc they were all inconsistent. Trent Boult, Josh Hazelwood & Kagiso Rabada had hardly started their careers. If there is one bowler who had that fire to keep improving it was Dale Steyn. In my initial years of following Cricket he was one bowler who wouldn't compromise on his pace and yet he bowled such tighter spells. Whenever India played South Africa I was always worried about the Steyn factor. He was that good.

I think the greatest ever bowling performance was Mitchell Johnson's 2013-14 Ashes series. I really enjoyed watching him bowl throughout that series.

The greatest Captain that I've followed is Dhoni in white ball Cricket and Michael Clarke in red-ball Cricket. I felt Clarke lead one of those Australian teams that was in transition and he was the only genuinely good batsman in their team. From what I followed in 2013 Ashes in England, Michael Clarke and Brad Haddin were only reliable batsmen they had while others were walking wickets or sitting ducks. Pattinson and Siddle were the only good bowlers they had while Lyon was good in his own way. The best spin bowler that I followed from the yesteryears was Graeme Swann. Things were that bad for spinners around the world.

I saw these players on top of their game in my initial years- Michael Clarke, Alastair Cook, AB de Villiers, Hashim Amla, Kumar Sangakkara, Mahela Jayawardene, MS Dhoni, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Brendon McCullum, Ross Taylor (he wasn't that good earlier), Ian Bell, Shakib Al Hasan, Dale Steyn, Morne Morkel, Vernon Philander, James Pattinson, Peter Siddle, Graeme Swann, Brad Haddin, James Anderson, Stuart Broad, Younis Khan, Mitchell Johnson, Tim Southee, Saeed Ajmal(who was later banned from bowling) & Junaid Khan. I may have still missed many names in there.

Growing up I watched these players reach greater heights- Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma, Shikhar Dhawan, Faf du Plessis, Quinton de Kock, Kane Williamson, Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane, Ravindra Jadeja, Sunil Narine, Ravichandran Ashwin, Steve Smith, Trent Boult, Kieron Pollard, Nicholas Pooran, Evin Lewis, Jason Holder, Murali Vijay, Joe Root, Yasir Shah, Nathan Lyon, Mitchell Starc, Josh Hazelwood, Aaron Finch, etc.

I also watched future stars like Yuzvendra Chahal, Jasprit Bumrah, Aiden Markram, Babar Azam, etc

I believe over the years Australia was the strongest side I followed then it was South Africa, India and England. Ever so declining sides are Pakistan, Sri Lanka, West Indies & Zimbabwe. Bangladesh is improving at a stagnant rate while Ireland and Afghanistan are quickly improving. Right now I think India and England are at par while Australia still have a work to do to get to their best. New Zealand has arguably their greatest ever side.

Now if you ask me historically which has been the strongest side I would definitely say it was West Indies in 80s, Pakistan in 90s, Australia in 2000s, South Africa in late 2000s and early 2010s while 2010s clearly belongs to India. Now it is actually a tough fight out between India, England and Australia but if we look at the bench strengths at present India may well dominate 2020s and England might decline in late 2020s but let us not write off Australia.

 

[Bevab]

Yes Dravid averages 52 odd and Tendulkar 53 odd..........thats a definite comparison? Tendulkar not doing well in an overseas series in one of the most difficult playing conditions in the world? Whats new?

Tendulkar, the bloke who averages at least 40 in every country? That bloke struggles when playing abroad?

If he had retired when he should have instead of needlessly chasing that hundreth hundred, there would be no discussion over this topic. Same goes for Ponting. Instead, both dragged their careers far too long and now we have claims of "oh but Sanga, Dravid, Kallis were all their equals at worst or clearly better".

 

[Satan666]

Tendulkar, the bloke who averages at least 40 in every country? That bloke struggles when playing abroad?

If he had retired when he should have instead of needlessly chasing that hundreth hundred, there would be no discussion over this topic. Same goes for Ponting. Instead, both dragged their careers far too long and now we have claims of "oh but Sanga, Dravid, Kallis were all their equals at worst or clearly better".

I fully agree Michael, hence most have and are rating Brian Lara head and shoulders above Sachin.

Sachin was interested in numbers game only and was a piss poor excuse of a batsman.....disclaimer this is my opinion to which I am entitled to!

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Tendulkar not doing well in an overseas series

This is not true. Tendulkar have dominated bowlers like Craig McDermott and Merv Hughes at their peak and he nearly won a Test match for India with that sort of batting along with Ravi Shastri who scored some 200-odd in that match. In the same series he scored another knock of 114 at the W.A.C.A which was another hell of a knock. He scored 400+ twice in a country like England and a 100 in every series upto 2007. Since 2007 he was on a decline in this format but he did score runs. In 2007-08 India tour of Australia he scored a couple of knock's of 150-odd and also scored a 90-odd at W.A.C.A . Had it not been for poor umpiring decisions, India would've won that series. He saved a match at Cape Town in 2011 against South Africa due to which India secured their first draw in a Test series in South Africa. 2009 India tour of New Zealand was another of those brilliance from Tendulkar. He scored a double ton even at the age of 36. Give that guy some respite.

It's an illogical argument brought from people saying he played for records. They haven't known him enough from his peak days. So let us not get to that.

Ideally Kapil Dev and Tendulkar would be equally best for India while Kohli isn't far from it. Kumble and Dravid maybe were at par but you can't count Ganguly out from it. Laxman had his share of struggles but he was equally good. Gambhir of 2008-09 would've been the greatest ever Test opener for India had he continued that form for 3-4 more years.

 

[Satan666]

Dhoni accepted being caught out, he certainly held Lara in high esteem. Dravid the captain then declares the inns, quelling any potential disagreements. Lara would have been confident in Dhoni acceptance as well before approaching the issue and had faith in Ganga to cleanly catch the ball.

Sad to see the Indian players of today with brashness and showmanship in everything.
.

 

[Satan666]

This is not true. Tendulkar have dominated bowlers like Craig McDermott and Merv Hughes at their peak and he nearly won a Test match for India with that sort of batting along with Ravi Shastri who scored some 200-odd in that match. In the same series he scored another knock of 114 at the W.A.C.A which was another hell of a knock. He scored 400+ twice in a country like England and a 100 in every series upto 2007. Since 2007 he was on a decline in this format but he did score runs. In 2007-08 India tour of Australia he scored a couple of knock's of 150-odd and also scored a 90-odd at W.A.C.A . Had it not been for poor umpiring decisions, India would've won that series. He saved a match at Cape Town in 2011 against South Africa due to which India secured their first draw in a Test series in South Africa. 2009 India tour of New Zealand was another of those brilliance from Tendulkar. He scored a double ton even at the age of 36. Give that guy some respite.

It's an illogical argument brought from people saying he played for records. They haven't known him enough from his peak days. So let us not get to that.

Ideally Kapil Dev and Tendulkar would be equally best for India while Kohli isn't far from it. Kumble and Dravid maybe were at par but you can't count Ganguly out from it. Laxman had his share of struggles but he was equally good. Gambhir of 2008-09 would've been the greatest ever Test opener for India had he continued that form for 3-4 more years.

I actually like Laxman the most of the fab five his wrist movements were a beauty to watch.

Tendulkar was a selfish and dishonest cricketer who never was a team player and indeed played for records only. Still he was unable to score a triple century, he failed miserably.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Tendulkar was a selfish and dishonest cricketer who never was a team player and indeed played for records only. Still he was unable to score

You just hate him. Accept and move on

 

[Satan666]

You just hate him. Accept and move on

Hate such a strong word. Wether or not I hate Sachin is beside the point. Facts are facts and they all point to Virat being the best batsman India has ever produced. You need to accept that Sachin was no god of cricket and you need to move on.

Dravid was better than Sachin.

Sehwag was better than Sachin.

 

[Bevab]

I fully agree Michael, hence most have and are rating Brian Lara head and shoulders above Sachin.

Sachin was interested in numbers game only and was a piss poor excuse of a batsman.....disclaimer this is my opinion to which I am entitled to!

You'll find no disagreements from me with regards to Lara and Tendulkar. Plenty of Indian fans rate Lara above Tendulkar too. Lara and Tendulkar were two contrasting players in terms of how their careers were with the former starting in an ATG team and ending with one in tatters while the latter started in a team struggling post the 80s with fixing and ending in a team in revival (but let's be honest, had he gone out when he should it have, it would have been an ATVG team). Lara was all about the big moments and the tall peaks while Tendulkar's was more of a very consistent, extended high. If I had to point out a flaw in Lara's record, it would be his relative inconsistency in comparison to a lot of greats. I would still rate Lara above Tendulkar but only ever so slightly, the margins are really slim. Not sure if you're aware but there was a user on Cricketweb who posted a top 100 ranking with detailed stats and explanations. Lara ranked fifth and Tendulkar seventh there but the caveat was that had Tendulkar retired when he easily should have, he would have been fourth. Still, it was his choice to play on and that means Lara will be the slightly better player in my eyes.

I don't see anything wrong with Tendulkar being obsessed with runs. A batsman is literally out there to make heaps of runs and if they were not at the expense of the team's needs, then there is nothing wrong with it. You don't believe Bradman would rank so highly without his obsession for runs do you? Tendulkar was one of the quickest run-scorers in the 90s in ODIs, the bloke very often did not hamper his side's chances. On the contrary, in a team filled with fixers he was the sole beacon of light. And there are instances of his obsession being a bit too much like his nervous nineties, that 194* declaration or his last two years of international cricket. Is it any different a weakness from Lara's own inconsistency though?

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Sachin was no god of cricket and you need to move on.

I did not call him that. Just cut it down

 

[CerealKiller]

You just hate him. Accept and move on

Don't feed the troll