General Cricket Discussion

[wasteyouryouth]

There's an interesting discussion awaiting underneath the weird Dhoni bashing that seems to have been the focus. I have no idea why out of all players Dhoni is the one to be catching strays in the first place, the bloke was a fine test keeper (less said about his captaincy the better), an ODI ATG and an underachiever in T20Is. But given that he was also the captain for three ICC tournament wins, none of which have been replicated since despite the relatively increasing depth in quality between India and other teams I'd be willing to excuse his mediocre test captaincy and T20I record.

Some of my own thoughts about franchise cricket that I've probably echoed in previous posts of mine on the same topic...

• First, most of the players do not give a crap about 'representing' any franchise. All they see is the loads of money they earn in a short period and the chance to further establish their reputations and grow it. This is even more true in the case of overseas players. Finch's comment on playing for nearly every IPL side and not remembering half of them, Buttler's rather racist mocking of the English vocabulary of Indian fans, the way in which several players underperform for years or teams before magically performing well for their international sides... there's numerous such examples. Teams having to rotate players every three years is also a reason, there's no attachment to any team with a core of players. The 'loyalty' of blokes like Bravo or Faf towards the Super Kings or Polly to the Indians is because of their ownership groups, not because they like the city the team is based in or the club itself and there's no doubt that it's the same for most Indian players too.
  
  
  
• It's also why I hate the cliche of 'IPL has trained players to perform better under pressure'. Sure they're not going to be as raw or inexperienced when they play international cricket due to the IPL's standard of cricket but those silly knockouts do not train them in any way for real pressure that you get when playing for your country. It's why the Indian side has wilted multiple times under pressure with both bat and ball in the knockouts for so long, the IPL's simulation of 'pressure' is an absolute sham.
  
  
  
• Reducing sport to mere entertainment is frankly ludicrous. It simply is not, that is not the point of sport. If you need just entertainment there's plenty of other avenues like shows or movies where you know everything is 'fake' or acted. Heck, there's even entertainment masquerading as sport these days like with the WWE. Sport is above entertainment because you know that those athletes participating are putting their bodies and minds on the line to gain an extra inch of performance for victory, it's what has made the entire thing compelling since time immemorial. People watch it because they know everyone is giving it well above what most humans are capable of and sometimes beyond even what the participants are normally capable of. I'm not even bringing in the other aspects of sport like the political, communal/social sides of it. If cricket is reduced one day to mere entertainment where people just go through the motions for the sake of putting on a show, I'll definitely stop watching it and I doubt I would be the only one.
  
  
  
• Franchise cricket has no place for tests or even a first-class format. Despite not being an old timer fan, I adore test cricket and hold it as the best format of this sport. There's no other equivalent in other sports that I can think of which brings something similar to the table and I feel that's what most of these morons in cricket administration are missing when they keep chasing the T20 dollars which has loads of equivalents in other sports. In a world where international cricket is almost dead and franchise only cricket prevails, there may not be any tests and I doubt I'd stick around if that is the case.
  
  
  
• One thing I fiercely dislike about all the people wanting franchise cricket to be the dominant force henceforth is the absolute lack of consideration for cricket in other parts of the world. Once you have franchises signing players onto year long contracts, most cricket boards have no incentive to invest in cricket pathways in their respective countries to bring up players as those projects are fundamentally loss makers on average that is subsidised by the few who make it to the top. This will just lead to an erosion of said pathways and the absolute dwindling of cricket as a sport of interest in many countries. There's already a lot of competition in such countries from other sports for cricket, the football leagues in Australia usually pay more and have better security compared to cricket, West Indian athletes are better off these days pursuing the American sports and England has it's own competition from football and rugby. In places like NZ where the sport is already a niche, cricket may just simply collapse.
  
  
  
• Now the counter argument is the subcontinental interest keeping the game alive and the franchises investing in said pathways instead. The former will keep the sport alive in this region, however it will still be very India-centric which already significantly hampers one other passionate country in said region. We may well have a NFL or NBA like situation in that case. Franchises will also not be incentivised to invest into pathways when they know that their chances of acquiring players via an auction are nebulous. Nobody wants to invest a lot of money into developing players you don't even have a surefire guarantee of signing. I don't think the BCCI will abolish auction anytime soon given the lucrative viewership and interest it brings and I don't see a world where every owner mutually agrees to not bid for other team's academy players (hell, you had Nehra making a troll counter-bid for Arjun Tendulkar when everyone knew he wasn't worth any bid in the first place because he knew MI would want him for other reasons) when they know they might be missing on the next Bumrah or Sachin if they do so.
  
  
  
• This will be even worse in other countries. The mostly India/America based ownership groups have no incentive to try and establish pathways in countries elsewhere unless they have equally profitable leagues running in said countries. Given the notorious difficulty in generating profits from T20 leagues, that is quite an arduous task. This just means that once those leagues start running out of talent to showcase, the owners will shut up shop and move elsewhere as they notice their margins falling. These morons like every other capitalist out there are fundamentally interested in generating money and not improving the sport or making long term plans for sustainability. I don't see a world where primarily India based teams will set up academies in other countries with current overseas player limits restricting their ability to sign players already. Besides, if you're a talented young athlete in Sydney with a sports scholarship to go to Uni and a contract to be a part of an AFL team, why the fearsome tweak would you try and grind it out in KKR's Sydney academy to earn a shot at immigrating to Kolkata at a young age to try and break into the IPL unless you have a desi dad who really forces you to get into cricket?

I can keep going on for more and more length but honestly I'd just hit the character limit for a single post on this forum so I'll just stop here and leave everyone to mull on these thoughts.

Spot on.

From a lot of things I read, from Indian/IPL fans, there seems to be this idea it'll be like the English Premier League - the 'best', highest-profile, amongst other leagues. I'd say it's at or beyond that level already. With the addition of restricting their own players to play elsewhere. If BBL had an Indian internationals, or at least upcoming or fringe player in each team, the viewership and money they could make would sky-rocket, if The Hundred had the same you can be sure they'd get the women's matches starting at 10am so the men's games are at peak TV time in India.

Long-term, like you say, it could be closer to US sport where the rest of the world is irrelevant other the funnelling talent into their leagues. I could envisage a situation where the richest franchises, instead of setting up academies, would potentially link up with a county in order to get first refusal on players. Of course they might not need to do this when they can just buy franchises in other countries.

 

[SaiSrini]

And again, as if CSK fans dont abuse MI fans and vice-versa? I havent heard of physical hate on cricketers/ losing life over it in international games. The last hate monger incident was when someone slapped Greg Chappell outside an airport.

You haven't heard of people committing suicide over defeats for India or Pakistan?

Mate, isnt it the same with franchisee as well? If you lose this year, dejected fans will go back and start all over again the coming year? If not, then please explain why 'Ee Saala Cup Naamde' chant keeps growing louder?

In your 1st line, you mentioned that it is a personal choice- so be it. I wouldnt then try and prove my faith to anyone with regards to my team winning or losing. If you believe in not following international, that is up to you. However, my concern lies with the fact that you've extended this personal fantasy world to the players' performances as well. You seem to be insinuating that the players too are hooked on to playing exclusively for the franchisee and have no relation with the national team.

This theory is quashed by the recent interview of Trent Boult, who still believes turning out for New Zealand in the World Cup would be the pinnacle of his career.

I did not say that players are more hooked to playing exclusively for the franchise and have no relation with national team. In fact I was arguing with Fenil on the other thread when he said "Dhoni played like a beast for CSK while being meek for India in T20I's".

I did say that there is a generation of cricketers right now who are bred on the romanticization of international cricket and will have a lot more passion for it because they have grown up on it (that Trent Boult statement perfectly aligns with it). I do think that will change drastically in the future as latter generations grow up on IPL and international cricket already feels clogged, overdone and uninteresting.

From my reading of IPL contracts:
1. The player concerned needs to get an NOC
2. The player concerned needs to pay his parent board a % of his earnings as facilitation fee
3. If the player concerned refuses to turn out for his own board, the board may revoke the NOC which will prohibit him from playing further in these leagues.
4. If the player retires, even in that case, he still needs a NOC for 2 years

Now, coming specifically to Jofra-in my opinion, he is finished. He has hardly turned out for England since the CWC 2019. England too, have shown that they can do without him. The plethora of pacers that have come up within the English ranks can put any other team to shame.

The deals that you mentioned above will more or less likely be signed by Caribbean persons who have no future cricketing life. For Jofra, it is basically an easy road to retirement. Anyhow that's not the point of our discussion here. However, the pointers mentioned above should give a clear indication of whether these deals can be worked out.

The BCCI point- they have done a stellar job in protecting their league and will continue to do so. Should a tide of players rise up, they will not hesitate in using their clout and banning these players from the IPL- even if it is someone like Virat Kohli. Remember what they did to Kapil Dev and the ICL, right? If such players join secondary high value ones like ILT20, Canada T20, Saudi upcoming league, I am prepared to bet that these leagues will end up getting banned by the ICC.

Jofra ain't finished. In fact, he has been called back by England to rest and rehabilitate and he has left MI team few days back. ECB does see him as a very valuable player. Also this news on Jofra seems more concrete, but before this news, there were stronger murmurs about other English players like Stokes, Buttler, etc being offered such contracts.

If a player is offered long term contracts by an IPL franchise, BCCI is not going to ban them. And BCCI cannot ban international players who play for the same team in other overseas leagues. That is not at all in their purview. For e.g. Theekshana plays for JSK in SAT20 and also for CSK in IPL. Its upto those other leagues to set what rules need to be place for player signing/retention. Your initial argument was that BCCI will pull the plug on IPL and that is why I responded with what I did.

This is your outlook. Don't think it changes for a majority of cricket followers to be honest. When the IPL expands, and it will to about 14-16 teams. I do not see city based loyalty ever replacing countries, unless, say a city breaks away from India(least likely scenario). Also, with the expansion in the IPL, expect that the IPL will embrace the T10 format to cram in more games and avoid player fatigue.

If it makes you feel better to say "it doesn't change for a majority of cricket followers...", then happy that it makes you feel good. If you want to point it out that I am in a minority and that my opinion is not echoed by the majority, I am OK! I have shared my opinions based on what I feel about the diff formats and how I see the game going and also how I would like to see this going. I am happy that the game now has options for entertainment that international cricket was giving me (at the end of the day, international cricket was entertaining me while also annoying me with its misplaced patriotism). Now I am happy that I can follow franchise cricket with passion while just skimming over news/scores of international cricket and watch it whenever I feel like.

 

[icyman]

I am no one to judge on patriotic abilities of anyone. I believe the same ought to apply to you as well. Your usage of the term 'misplaced patriotism' itself is quite wrong here.

It isn't subjective, to be honest. Just cause you've had issues with international cricket, doesn't mean you have the right to go on and make comments about patriotism here.

Anyhow, I believe indulging further in this debate would be terribly foolish on many counts. Be happy, enjoy the game the way you want.

 

[SaiSrini]

I am no one to judge on patriotic abilities of anyone. I believe the same ought to apply to you as well. Your usage of the term 'misplaced patriotism' itself is quite wrong here.

It isn't subjective, to be honest. Just cause you've had issues with international cricket, doesn't mean you have the right to go on and make comments about patriotism here.

Anyhow, I believe indulging further in this debate would be terribly foolish on many counts. Be happy, enjoy the game the way you want.

I’m going to make one final comment on this topic before we close -

‘Misplaced patriotism’ is my view/opinion of the patriotism that ppl display when their country wins or loses. I was indulging in the same when I was passionately attached to international cricket. I’ve changed a lot and realized that the patriotism displayed for a game of sport is so misplaced and unnecessary. You can feel different. I just find it weird/disappointing that you think I’ve no right to comment on patriotism.

All good apart from it. I indulged in this topic with you because I like your points of view although we differ in certain things while matching in other topics, while staying sensible

 

[icyman]

By the way, I just read this-

ICC announces qualification pathway for 2027 World Cup

While South Africa and Zimbabwe gain a direct qualification as "full-member hosts", Namibia are not guaranteed a spot

www.cricket.com

The headline gives out a lot more here. Why doesn't Namibia qualify automatically???

I just find it weird/disappointing that you think I’ve no right to comment on patriotism.

Alrighty, maybe ought to rephrase myself better then

 

[shinyhorse]

By the way, I just read this-

ICC announces qualification pathway for 2027 World Cup

While South Africa and Zimbabwe gain a direct qualification as "full-member hosts", Namibia are not guaranteed a spot

www.cricket.com

The headline gives out a lot more here. Why doesn't Namibia qualify automatically???


Alrighty, maybe ought to rephrase myself better then

Namibia unlucky recently koz all their games at slow Kirtipur track which is home ground of Nepal but Namibia left out not reaches to Qualify requirement in play off so Namibia not get Automatic entry

.

 

[shinyhorse]

.

Not to worry koz as far as I know, 2027 ODI WC Namibia will be hosting few matches besides Zimbabwe & Proteas

( iCC will be scrapped super League on Right after WC in india in November 2023 )

Team merit will decides on differently than the way now.

 

[icyman]

My concern is with the CWC 2027 qualification. How can you name someone as a host and not have them play directly?

Even FIFA isn't this shallow.

 

[Bevab]

Some countries are now actively trying to be hosts so that they can avoid qualification for the tournament in football. Meanwhile we have this shambles of a decision by the ICC.

I hope they go back on it.

 

[pillowprocter]

Some countries are now actively trying to be hosts so that they can avoid qualification for the tournament in football.

Wait what? How does that work?

 

[Bevab]

Wait what? How does that work?

The same way it does in general?

The South American bid for the 2030 World Cup is a blatant attempt at this in particular, it was originally just supposed to be Argentina with a few matches held in Uruguay for historic and symbolic reasons of it being the hundred year anniversary (one of the Qatari stadiums was built in mind with this bid, most of it was to be disassembled and then transported to Uruguay for reassembly should the bid be successful). Since then both Paraguay and Chile have joined that bid. Qualification for the WC in South America is generally a ruthless process due to the unique challenges each country produces for it’s opponent and four spots going to four countries will leave only two guaranteed spots for the remaining countries, one of which is virtually guaranteed to be Brazil. I don’t think South Africa and Qatar had any realistic hopes of qualifying for a WC at the time of their successful bids too.

That bid is still better than Spain and Portugal deciding to have Ukraine in their bid for very obvious political reasons without any consideration of the practical issues it would face (I think they’ve since gone back to their original plan of an Iberian WC with Morocco instead but I’m not sure).

 

[icyman]

Wait what? How does that work?

FIFA has a structured system of selecting the host. Not all regions are eligible to host at the same time.

For e.g, since Qatar did it last year, the next time someone from the region can bid for the hosting rights would be in 2034.

The host selection process, in itself is akin to the Olympic host selection one. Members are required to present a full plan with tentative cities and how they would go about it. This is them put to a vote amongst the members. Multiple rounds often take place until a winner is determined.

Like @Bevab mentioned, there's an increase in the number of joint bids nowadays. Mostly to ensure that the hosts get through, in what is an otherwise fish market. 3-4 country bids will be common going forth, seeing the tournament will increase to feature almost 48 nations next time round.

Back to cricket, it certainly makes no sense to ask Namibia to host and not to have them directly participate in the same. Defies all logic. The last time they did such an act was in 1998 Knockout Trophy- hosted in Bangladesh,but the hosts weren't a part of it.

As for cricket hosting, I do believe that the following formula be applied:

1. World Cups - Regional rotation( not every 2nd to Eng/Ind)

2. T20 World Cups/ U19 WC- Given the frequency of it every 2 years, makes sense to develop the game further. Have the Associates host this exclusively.

3. Champions Trophy- will remain a 8 team event in the foreseeable future. Can be rotated among full members. However, if they change the format to e pure KO. would love to see this being hosted in other countries.

The ICC certainly has missed a trick w.r.t hosting rights. Given the diaspora, events in Canada, South East Asia and perhaps even China are bound to attract eyeballs.

 

[CerealKiller]

elder brother of Brendon McCullum sold earlier today

 

[Bigby Wolf]

elder brother of Brendon McCullum sold earlier today

Context?

 

[wasteyouryouth]

elder brother of Brendon McCullum sold earlier today

Wait until you find out who wins the 2012 Asia Cup