ICC World Test Championship 2019/21 Final - General Discussions

[Bigby Wolf]

Ye dukh kahe khatam nahi hota?

Why doesn't the misery end?

After 2011(Prime age of passionate following started):

2011 WON
2012 Out in Super 8
2013 WON
2014 Final Lost
2015 Semi
2016 Semi
2017 Final Lost
2019 Semi
2021 Final Lost

Way too many defeats in the same pattern and similar mistakes in the last few of those.

1) Selection Error.
2) Collapses (Top or Middle Order).

Wish we get a three match test series in three different months with three different surfaces or else a championship held entirely in a host country next time. Could make this event even better.

Like this Idea also fair no. of Opportunity for the others Teams as well.

This Series Wise Point distribution needs a sorting too How come a 5 Match Ashes Series is equal to a 2 Tests played between say India - Bangladesh or New Zealand - West Indies.

 

[Bigby Wolf]

Hurting where it hurts the most:
View attachment 252024

Our two innings couldn't even match their 1-inning score. Shami/Ishtant/Bumrah/Umesh/Siraj are walking wickets. Once the 6th wicket falls, you know it's only a matter of 5-8 overs before the innings ends.

And when the tail clicked Sundar - Thakur and the rest we breached the Gabbaiator.

My PTSD dose from WTC final is to watch the Gabba Test highlights again & again

 

[Akshay.]

Hurting where it hurts the most:
View attachment 252024

Our two innings couldn't even match their 1-inning score. Shami/Ishtant/Bumrah/Umesh/Siraj are walking wickets. Once the 6th wicket falls, you know it's only a matter of 5-8 overs before the innings ends.

That's one issue
But the big problem is the 3 in the middle aren't playing big innings which is hurting us the most. Expecting from bowlers is fine, but first the batsmen need to do their job.

 

[Aislabie]

Wish we get a three match test series in three different months with three different surfaces or else a championship held entirely in a host country next time. Could make this event even better

I agree with this really. If there's a three-Test final series then the first Test at Lord's in Aug/Sep, the second Test at Eden Gardens in Sep/Oct and the third Test at the MCG in Oct/Nov. Maybe have them all as six-day Tests, with a warm-up match scheduled before each Test for each team. (Ofc, this is all pandemic dependent)

I'd also look to include all twelve Test teams in the WTC. This would if anything help with scheduling:

Pot A -
Pot B -
Pot C -

One home and one away series against each team from each pot, should create a relatively balanced schedule. It's easy enough to do a points system that properly balances two-, three, four- and five-Test series.

Spoiler: Points System

Series Length	Teams	W	T	D	L
Five Tests	Big Three	20	12	8	0
Four Tests	A v A	25	15	10	0
Three Tests	A v B, B v B	30	18	12	0
Two Tests	A v C, B v C, C v C	40	24	16	0

A draw is never worth more than a win, and longer series are worth more than shorter ones - but not to the extent that it disadvantages smaller teams. Pot A teams can earn a maximum of 520 points from between 18 and 20 Tests; Pot B teams can earn 510 points from 16 Tests and Pot C teams can earn 480 points from 12 Tests.

I'd also like to see a playoff between the 12th placed team and Intercontinental Cup winner, but that'd mean actually investing in the I-Cup

If there's to be a tournament (my preference) then I've already laid out my vision for how that would work

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

second Test at Eden Gardens in Sep/Oct

No way!!!! We don't want another rain affected Final.

 

[Aislabie]

No way!!!! We don't want another rain affected Final.

Two draws at Lord's and Eden Gardens leading into a guaranteed decider at the MCG

 

[wasteyouryouth]

I agree with this really. If there's a three-Test final series then the first Test at Lord's in Aug/Sep, the second Test at Eden Gardens in Sep/Oct and the third Test at the MCG in Oct/Nov. Maybe have them all as six-day Tests, with a warm-up match scheduled before each Test for each team. (Ofc, this is all pandemic dependent)

I'd also look to include all twelve Test teams in the WTC. This would if anything help with scheduling:

Pot A -
Pot B -
Pot C -

One home and one away series against each team from each pot, should create a relatively balanced schedule. It's easy enough to do a points system that properly balances two-, three, four- and five-Test series.

Spoiler: Points System

Series Length	Teams	W	T	D	L
Five Tests	Big Three	20	12	8	0
Four Tests	A v A	25	15	10	0
Three Tests	A v B, B v B	30	18	12	0
Two Tests	A v C, B v C, C v C	40	24	16	0

A draw is never worth more than a win, and longer series are worth more than shorter ones - but not to the extent that it disadvantages smaller teams. Pot A teams can earn a maximum of 520 points from between 18 and 20 Tests; Pot B teams can earn 510 points from 16 Tests and Pot C teams can earn 480 points from 12 Tests.

I'd also like to see a playoff between the 12th placed team and Intercontinental Cup winner, but that'd mean actually investing in the I-Cup

If there's to be a tournament (my preference) then I've already laid out my vision for how that would work

I prefer % pts won to having different points for different series/matches. Or just not bother with points and have % matches won, I guess that doesn't necessarily reward a courageous draw or a wash out though.

I'd prefer 3 match series in groups of 4 or 6 but that's not realistic. I'd favour just having 2-match series. I did think having the first and last match of a 4 or 5 match series might be good but you could end up with England winning the first and last test of the Ashes, while losing the middle three, but getting all the WTC points. So, just have an extra two test series. If England play Australia or India play England so be it. They don't have to put the individual trophies on the line.

For a final I'd happily see a best of three, but if one team wins the first two just don't play the last match. It's a waste of time. I don't care if it's a three-week stop over in on country or three matches in three countries. Although I would be far more excited if India and New Zealand were off to Edgbaston or Old Trafford for a second test next week, than waiting three months while India play a five-match series against England in between.

For the final, I think there should be two nominated countries to host and if one of those countries qualifies then you play at the other. What I enjoyed most about this match was the neutrality. It wasn't one-team steamrolling another because they are more familiar with and have players better suited to the conditions. I would really have liked to see at least one more match. Or just have the winner's host like Eurovision, although I think at some point you'd end up with India hosting and winning for all eternity and 60 year-old Ashwin on 3000 test wickets.

 

[CerealKiller]

Have two conferences, drawn according to the last WTC's standings. Teams that finished numbers 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, plus whoever's ranked worst between Zimbabwe, Ireland and Afghanistan in the Test rankings in Conference A. Teams that finished numbers 2, 4, 6, 8 and the remaining two from the aforementioned trio. Points system is the same, with percentage of points won to determine standing. Table toppers in each conference meet in the final. For the final, the format mentioned by @Aislabie would be perfect. Three matches in different conditions, plus have a system of bonus points in order to eliminate the possibility of a draw.

 

[Aislabie]

I prefer % pts won to having different points for different series/matches. Or just not bother with points and have % matches won, I guess that doesn't necessarily reward a courageous draw or a wash out though.

I get that, although it does quite severely unbalance things and leads to teams seeking far longer home series and far shorter away series. It just leads to conflicts of interest really.

I think there should be two nominated countries to host and if one of those countries qualifies then you play at the other.

That would be quite fun; something along the lines of this series match being held in England, but if England had qualified for it then they could go and lose in the West Indies instead so that it was still at a neutral venue. I don't see any issue with that, nor with a three-Test series for the final. The dream would be for it to be across three countries to test the teams in three different kinds of conditions

 

[Aislabie]

Pot A -
Pot B -
Pot C -

Spoiler: WTC Schedule

Home Series
Afghanistan (11)
vs Bangladesh (2 Tests)
vs England (2 Tests)
vs Sri Lanka (2 Tests)

Australia (3)
vs Afghanistan (2 Tests)
vs England (5 Tests)
vs South Africa (3 Tests)

Bangladesh (9)
vs New Zealand (2 Tests)
vs West Indies (2 Tests)
vs Zimbabwe (2 Tests)

England (4)
vs India (5 Tests)
vs Ireland (2 Tests)
vs Pakistan (3 Tests)

India (2)
vs New Zealand (4 Tests)
vs West Indies (3 Tests)
vs Zimbabwe (2 Tests)

Ireland (12)
vs Afghanistan (2 Tests)
vs India (2 Tests)
vs Pakistan (2 Tests)

New Zealand (1)
vs Australia (4 Tests)
vs Bangladesh (2 Tests)
vs Sri Lanka (3 Tests)

Pakistan (6)
vs Bangladesh (2 Tests)
vs India (3 Tests)
vs West Indies (3 Tests)

South Africa (5)
vs Afghanistan (2 Tests)
vs New Zealand (3 Tests)
vs Sri Lanka (3 Tests)

Sri Lanka (7)
vs England (3 Tests)
vs Pakistan (3 Tests)
vs Zimbabwe (2 Tests)

West Indies (8)
vs Australia (3 Tests)
vs Ireland (2 Tests)
vs South Africa (3 Tests)

Zimbabwe (10)
vs Australia (2 Tests)
vs Ireland (2 Tests)
vs South Africa (2 Tests)

Spoiler: Example Itinerary: England

Afghanistan vs England (2 Tests)
England vs India (5 Tests)
Sri Lanka vs England (3 Tests)
England vs Ireland (2 Tests)
England vs Pakistan (3 Tests)
Australia vs England (5 Tests)

Here's what the schedule could look like with the system I was looking at before. I wouldn't rule out mistakes though as I've literally just scribbled that out by hand. If it worked though, my approach would be to just swap the teams in and out according to their finishing positions in the last WTC; if Bangladesh finish fourth, then they inherit the home series against 2nd, 6th and 12th; the away series against 3rd, 7th and 11th*. That kind of system.

(Ideally I'd take enough time over the schedule that all teams' schedules added up to 39 for maximum equality. Time to spreadsheet it!)

 

[Na Maloom Afraad]

Pakistan (6)
vs India (3 Tests)

Hehe

 

[wasteyouryouth]

I get that, although it does quite severely unbalance things and leads to teams seeking far longer home series and far shorter away series. It just leads to conflicts of interest really.


That would be quite fun; something along the lines of this series match being held in England, but if England had qualified for it then they could go and lose in the West Indies instead so that it was still at a neutral venue. I don't see any issue with that, nor with a three-Test series for the final. The dream would be for it to be across three countries to test the teams in three different kinds of conditions

I don't know if teams are that concerned about trying to fix things to ensure an easier path. England basically threw in the towel on qualifying for the final before they went to India in preparation for an Ashes that's almost a year away and a five-match T20 series that followed it.

The same problems apply to all ICC tournaments. When it comes to excitement vs fairness vs money, money always wins and so we get formats that stinks.

Of course, the irony is, the somewhat maligned Champions Trophy, which is just shoe-horned in for a bit of extra cash, has the most appropriate and exciting format based on the number of teams.

 

[Aislabie]

Of course, the irony is, the somewhat maligned Champions Trophy, which is just shoe-horned in for a bit of extra cash, has the most appropriate and exciting format based on the number of teams.

Oh yeah, the Champions Trophy is almost always a banger.

Also, I fixed my scheduling problem by spreadsheeting it:


If that all looks a little bit overwhelming that's understandable; it's essentially a plug-in-and-play WTC that guarantees the fairest possible schedule.

So using the current WTC standings, that would see New Zealand (1) play India (2), West Indies (8) and Bangladesh (9) at home and England (4), South Africa (5) and Afghanistan (11) away.

Using these historic Test rankings, you'd have the following based on a draw on 01 Jan 2005:
Australia (Seed 1) play England (2), West Indies (8) and Zimbabwe (9) at home and India (4), South Africa (5) and Scotland (I-Cup winner) away.

It really does create decently balanced schedules.

 

[wasteyouryouth]

Oh yeah, the Champions Trophy is almost always a banger.

Also, I fixed my scheduling problem by spreadsheeting it:
View attachment 252026

If that all looks a little bit overwhelming that's understandable; it's essentially a plug-in-and-play WTC that guarantees the fairest possible schedule.

So using the current WTC standings, that would see New Zealand (1) play India (2), West Indies (8) and Bangladesh (9) at home and England (4), South Africa (5) and Afghanistan (11) away.

Using these historic Test rankings, you'd have the following based on a draw on 01 Jan 2005:
Australia (Seed 1) play England (2), West Indies (8) and Zimbabwe (9) at home and India (4), South Africa (5) and Scotland (I-Cup winner) away.

It really does create decently balanced schedules.

I probably posted this, or something similar at least, a few weeks ago.

I'd favour one of these models in the picture. They wouldn't be my perfect system - that'd be 12 teams play each other home and away over four years (or utilising a similar pts system to the Women's Ashes for a single World Championship) but that ain't happening. Two groups of six would probably be my favourite that might at least be considered, but I still don't see that happening.

The second option would be preferred, and the stupid Super Six system could be used more usefully. At the end of the day you are looking to filter out the top six teams. This would do that effectively.

4 groups play 2-match series then qualify for a second stage in larger groups to play the remaining teams. (And people will say... Pakistan can't play India - well if that's the case either England go into India's group or India forfeit the pts... and... butwhatabouttheAshes - well, it doesn't have to be an Ashes series. The matches would sell out no matter what).

The six groups would be three-match series, carrying forward the pts from the matches against the other group qualifier. The other six teams could go into a 'plate' group where it would be playing for prize money and improving rankings, these could be two-match series.


There's probably a glaring error somewhere.

But, and I've said this before, there are dozens of better options that players, fans, journalists, coaches can propose but the ICC will always come up with something worse.

 

[wasteyouryouth]

Spoiler: all tweets

Great thread this making the case in favour of the one-off final test.