India tour of West Indies Aug-Sept 2019

[Villain]

He scored nearly 150 odd against Australia in Australia facing bowlers like Hazelwood, Cummins and Mitchell Starc alongwith Nathan Lyon. And would always improve with the number of chances he gets. I don't actually see a good keeper in the domestic arena yet. A WK batsman is always hard to find.

The thing is we hardly ever had any good wk batsman in Tests so if we go by records he'll always be ahead and that one was a good knock but he really needs to improve since he's getting golden opportunities and needs to respect the place he's getting. We don't have any great options currently but we have enough of everything to prepare a WK batsman for Tests, in limited overs Pant can have his place for now.

 

[Villain]

Did you notice that you have just posted two highly contradictory statements for two players (Wriddhiman Saha and Rohit Sharma)?

For Saha, you say "he is aging 35 and so we need to move on from him". For Rohit Sharma, you say "players made debut after 35 yrs of age and so no one can actually say when is the time up for a player".

The difference is one is a wicket-keeper while other is a batsman, huge fitness requirement difference.

 

[SaiSrini]

The difference is one is a wicket-keeper while other is a batsman, huge fitness requirement difference.

How so? It's not like the difference between a 'bowler' and a 'batsman'. A wicketkeeper is not running in hard and placing a lot of physical impact on his body. Wicketkeeping is almost like a fielding position where the only difference is that the position requires more mind skills than other fielding positions.

 

[abhi_jacko]

How so? It's not like the difference between a 'bowler' and a 'batsman'. A wicketkeeper is not running in hard and placing a lot of physical impact on his body. Wicketkeeping is almost like a fielding position where the only difference is that the position requires more mind skills than other fielding positions.

Actually, fitness and temperament are massively important for wicket keeping and it is way more challenging than other fielding positions. Especially in tests. The ball is going to come to you a lot more than all other fielders combined. You have to be squatting and moving with the ball with immense concentration for as long as you are on the field. You have to switch ends after every over. And all this is in consistent conditions.

In challenging conditions where the ball is moving or bouncing or turning, the cricket pitch can provide the most inconsistent behavior as opposed to the rest of the field. Requires a whole lot of concentration and fitness to tackle all that and not commit a game changing error

Wicket keeping should always take preference over batting in Tests. A dropped catch or missed stumping will lose you a match more often than not. While you have 6 other folks to cover up for your batting errors

 

[Bevab]

This sudden criticism over Pant makes no sense to me. He has been one of the better Indian batsmen in tests since his debut and it is ridiculous to suggest that he is ‘wasting’ opportunities while senior players like Rahane and Rahul have averaged below 30 in the same time period. The only other options we have for him are Saha and Bharat. Added to that, he has the highest average in first class cricket for an Indian keeper currently. A better option simply does not ‘exist’ and to reduce him to a mere slogger does a disservice to his stellar batting record till date.

Saha is one of the best keepers in the world but is not of much use with the bat. He is already 34 years old and those reflexes will diminish over the next few years if they haven’t already due to his injury issues. Bharat deserves a chance soon (in a dead rubber perhaps) and it will be a shame if he doesn’t get one.

Pant’s keeping to me seems a lot better with pacers compared to spinners though he is nowhere near Saha yet. Saha would be my pick in India due to his superior keeping skills and the lack of requirement for a great number seven batsman. Overseas though? I would select Pant even if it means 10-20 extra runs in byes as he has the capability to score big which is highly needed versus a top quality side.

Pant’s temperament issues are definitely a worry, I saw him constantly losing patience versus Lyon and trying to slog when he could have been more patient but Rohit himself was guilty of the same and he is still in the side too while Pant has the advantage of time and age to rectify all of his issues.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Did you notice that you have just posted two highly contradictory statements for two players (Wriddhiman Saha and Rohit Sharma)?

For Saha, you say "he is aging 35 and so we need to move on from him". For Rohit Sharma, you say "players made debut after 35 yrs of age and so no one can actually say when is the time up for a player".

Can you tell me a WK batsman who made his debut after 35 years of age ? For a batsman Adam Voges is the biggest of example one can have.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

A wicket keeper is prone to get injured once he crosses a particular age and he would fail to deliver because of the tiredness he develops by being on the field for a long period of time. Players like AB de Villiers, Brendon McCullum, Kumar Sangakara, etc left keeping in Tests because of this very fact ! And Saha's batting alone can't be relied. I mean he is no Mathew Wade who can be brought into the side for his batting alone.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Also the fact that Rohit Sharma hasn't been away from the Test team for a while and it's not like he has completely failed to deliver. At times he did score runs, even in the series against Australia he did well.

So that makes his case against Saha who hasn't been part of the squad due to fitness issues.

And again it's not like he is going to make the playing XI right on the word go. He would have to work for it.

 

[Villain]

How so? It's not like the difference between a 'bowler' and a 'batsman'. A wicketkeeper is not running in hard and placing a lot of physical impact on his body. Wicketkeeping is almost like a fielding position where the only difference is that the position requires more mind skills than other fielding positions.

Pretty much what Jack said, the wicketkeeper faces every ball and has to dive more often, be agile and you can't have an unfit guy in that position while a batsman who's not a good fielder can be placed anywhere or the least important place in the field. So age and fitness does matter for a wicketkeeper exception is one and only MS Dhoni, you can't compare him with anyone when it's about wicket-keeping.

And to people calling Pant a valuable bat in Tests - I don't know what are they considering? All his scores in the Test series in Australia were around 20-40s and even less than that except for that one and only century. Same performance in England, single digit scores in 5 innings and one century in the last innings when India lost.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Pretty much what Jack said, the wicketkeeper faces every ball and has to dive more often, be agile and you can't have an unfit guy in that position while a batsman who's not a good fielder can be placed anywhere or the least important place in the field. So age and fitness does matter for a wicketkeeper exception is one and only MS Dhoni, you can't compare him with anyone when it's about wicket-keeping.

And to people calling Pant a valuable bat in Tests - I don't know what are they considering? All his scores in the Test series in Australia were around 20-40s and even less than that except for that one and only century. Same performance in England, single digit scores in 5 innings and one century in the last innings when India lost.

You are missing the context that Pant has only played 9 Test matches for India. Atleast let that guy get enough chances !

 

[Villain]

You are missing the context that Pant has only played 9 Test matches for India. Atleast let that guy get enough chances !

All we can do is wait and see, he or Saha are the only options we have right now. If he performs better in Tests, that'd only be better for the team we support. My point was only about his temperament, he has age on his side. With the current management he's not going anywhere so you'll see him in all the upcoming Test matches.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

It's amazing how perception plays a role in opinion forming. When I went for an IPL game last year, Pant trained for an hour and a half more than anyone else. He is very very agile. Yes, he looks buffed up but I don't remember a game where he has struggled fitness wise. People are asking him to relinquish the gloves? He's less than 25! Also, his batting is already better than anyone else bar Dhoni. He has a century in England & Australia.

Coming to Umesh? Umesh is twice the bowler Bhuvi is in WI because of reverse swing and I am a huge Bhuvi fan! Shami, Bumrah and Umesh would be my go to guys for reverse swing. The reason I don't play Shami here is because he has put in a lot of Kms over the last year. Nothing else.

And Rohit Sharma will undoubtably get runs in WI against WI. Let him get to England, SA, NZ or Australia and he will dance better than a black mamba does to a snake charmer! This is proven. Not up for debate. How fat has he become by the way?

 

[abhi_jacko]

Saha over Pant would make sense, if Saha had one bout of injury and then recovered within a few months and came back. I believe there is an unsaid policy that if your frontline player is coming back from injury, then he will be given a chance in the playing XI. I have read this in some articles quoting our selectors.

But then Saha went on and got injured again, twice. And now has been out of the team for almost 2 years. Meanwhile, Pant has racked up a couple of tons in Australia and England, and despite questions on his temperament, he has actually shown that he can survive tough bowling line ups - all he needs is some guidance at the other end to churn out big scores. All this is undoubtedly unfortunate for Saha, who was our first choice keeper since Dhoni retired. But this just goes on to show, how important fitness level is if you are part of a world class team. An injury episode and you might mess up your career completely.

For now, Pant has to be persisted with in Tests and Saha will have to play the backup role. Pant's fitness is excellent as well, which can make up for his average keeping techniques. He is stocky but very agile. Should definitely be in the starting XI tomorrow

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Saha over Pant would make sense, if Saha had one bout of injury and then recovered within a few months and came back. I believe there is an unsaid policy that if your frontline player is coming back from injury, then he will be given a chance in the playing XI. I have read this in some articles quoting our selectors.

But then Saha went on and got injured again, twice. And now has been out of the team for almost 2 years. Meanwhile, Pant has racked up a couple of tons in Australia and England, and despite questions on his temperament, he has actually shown that he can survive tough bowling line ups - all he needs is some guidance at the other end to churn out big scores. All this is undoubtedly unfortunate for Saha, who was our first choice keeper since Dhoni retired. But this just goes on to show, how important fitness level is if you are part of a world class team. An injury episode and you might mess up your career completely.

For now, Pant has to be persisted with in Tests and Saha will have to play the backup role. Pant's fitness is excellent as well, which can make up for his average keeping techniques. He is stocky but very agile. Should definitely be in the starting XI tomorrow

Very sensible post.

I have a feeling though that Samson is being looked at for the reserve role, although Samson has not done well in domestic cricket but suddenly becomes a focal point when the IPL comes about. I think Saha is the best option as a back up because he is the best keeper in the country.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Let him get to England, SA, NZ or Australia and he will dance better than a black mamba does to a snake charmer!

Now that seemed a bit unnecessary. There are other ways to convey your disappointment rather than calling players by names. Only thing I could say is that he has struggled against the moving ball and doesn't have enough calibre to survive in those conditions but still have enough of potential to punch above his weight to survive in those conditions. Just requires a bit of mental discipline. He has developed himself a lot more than what he had a couple of years ago.