Mohammad Asifs "B" sample positive for steroids

[irottev]

Ban him for life! Zero tolerance for drug cheats!

zMario: Stop trying to defend your drug-cheating countryman. Him and Akhtar make your Pakistan team look like real saints.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

And I am yet to find a source on the 0.8 - 1.0 ng per ml figure - can you please point me to one on that? If it is one of the sources only doctor people can look at, can you please take a screenshot of the relevant information?

In the Asian Games 2002, I believe a woman athlete was tested with something similar to nandrolone. When the B sample was tested, it was still over the limit, but it was lower.

Well again You can't compare a Drug and Dietary regimens of Cricketers and Athletes.
In Cricketers You hardly found Nandrolone level higher than 1 ng per ml.when in Athletes it can be up to 1.8-2.0 most of times.

Then I believe she submitted her pee pee again for a DNA Test, and they proved that the pee pee submitted id not match the one that they just received.

So Are you trying to say same for Asif?
Or your point is that Two samples results must match each other?

As I have told If you do 10 analysis from same urine sample you would find different reading every time.

And I am yet to find a source on the 0.8 - 1.0 ng per ml figure - can you please point me to one on that? If it is one of the sources only doctor people can look at, can you please take a screenshot of the relevant information?

no.

 

[Insomniac]

Actually 6.2 is just too high for a Sportsman who plays cricket.
Regarding to athlete,they don't administer this drug alone and rarely.They contaminated it with other Supplement which increase the potential activity of Nandrolone.They have to perform once a 4 year and they don't administer it a day before a game as they started to administer it months before the event.They can take this drug up to unprescribed level because they would use antagonist of androgens later to avoid its side effects,which is something Cricketers can't do as they have to play more frequently.

A normal Human body may have Nandrolone level up to 0.8 ng per ml so definitely 6.2 is just too high for Cricketer.

Yet the official study says that if a sportsman PURPOSELY took the nandrolone, he'd have over 100 thousand times the 2.0.

There is no difference between a cricketer, and say, a basketball player. Both are sports, and both have the same studies. I don't know why you're giving this junk about how 6.2 is high for Asif, but is not considered high in basketball or american football.

vaibhav mehta added 3 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...



No Asif would not reach to 100,000 or Higher until He takes that drug more than 20 days or He would mix it with any other Corticosteroid which can stimulate action of Nandrolone.

I am not here for big Debate not at least in the area of Medicine but Anywhere in the world 6.2 is just too high for a Cricketer.

So you're saying Asif just started taking Nandrolone, so he got 6.2?

Also, once again, read my post above. Cricket, Basketball, and all the other sports fall under the same category of SPORTS by WADA. You cannot say 6.2 is too high for cricket, but is too little for baseball or whatever sports there are.

Please read the studies. You may be a doctor, but what you speak of contradicts these studies. Care to explain why?

Also, I am still waiting for a source on the 0.8 ng / mL - 1.0 ng / mL.

I am sure something of this sort will easily be available.

Using the internet, I found WAY different numbers to what vaiby has stated, however, I will wait for vaiby to prove his source before I completely go after him on this.

Also vaiby, are you a sports doctor? Exactly what kind of doctor are you training to be / are? I'm just interested in your qualifications to make such statements which studies are contradicting.

Well again You can't compare a Drug and Dietary regimens of Cricketers and Athletes.
In Cricketers You hardly found Nandrolone level higher than 1 ng per ml.when in Athletes it can be up to 1.8-2.0 most of times.





So Are you trying to say same for Asif?
Or your point is that Two samples results must match each other?

Well, it seems you have plucked your 0.8 - 1.0 figure out of thin air. I'm sure Asif's lawyer would be aware of such numbers, and wouldn't waste his time, so there's more to the story that we know.

As I have told If you do 10 analysis from same urine sample you would find different reading every time.

But a difference of 0.8?


no.

What do you mean no? Are you plucking information out of thin air now?

It just so happens that I live with a doctor, so I am keeping tabs on everything you say, and confirming it. I once again request for proof of the 0.8 - 1.0 figure you have given, as it is nowhere on the internet.

Please provide some type of proof to this, before I give you my proof which will contradict everything you have said (including studies from the USA)

 

[Insomniac]

no.



Please,Go on.

Erm - I have already posted the URLs to the studies on the previous page which contradict your posts.

And I am asking for your proof first, as you have made the outlandish claims first.

If you are unable to provide the proof due to making up the numbers / guessing, then please say so.

If you trust Internet more than go on.
Just clarify me something from Internet.

1. If 6.2 is not too high then How the hell Asif caught up with that level where in normal individuals it is only 0.4 ng per ml?

2. Show me at least two Cases where both the reading from same analysis have got same value.(Practically not possible at all)

3. Why the hell WADA has settled level of 2.0 ng per ml where normal body can produce level up to 0.4 ng per ml?

You're not a sports doctor, so unless you're something thats close or related to it.

1. How should I know. Explain why theres such a large difference of .8

2. I never said that its gonna be exactly the same. For example, if the result was 6.2 and 6.4 or 6.2 and 5.9 or something similar, then yes, your argument is correct. But I've never heard of one pee pee sample being 6.2 and the other being 5.3, although its the same.

3. How should I know? Also, Nandrolone testing is very inaccurate. Have you seen the list of athletes banned, but didn't take nandrolone?

I believe if a player is tense, or something similar, their blood levels are different, which allow for false positives.

I'm not defending Asif at all, unless something completely out of the blue is revealed.

However, I'm going right after your statements, because studies completely contradict what you're saying. Are you better / greater than the studies?

Since I've already caught you on that, I suggest you give a source for the 0.8 - 1.0 number, since its fairly useless for us to completely believe you when already your entire point has been shot down by the various studies (like the UCLA one)

 

[vaibhav mehta]

are you a sports doctor?

no.

Please provide some type of proof to this, before I give you my proof which will contradict everything you have said (including studies from the USA)

Please,Go on.

vaibhav mehta added 5 Minutes and 44 Seconds later...

Using the internet, I found WAY different numbers to what vaiby has stated, however, I will wait for vaiby to prove his source before I completely go after him on this.

If you trust Internet more than go on.
Just clarify me something from Internet.

1. If 6.2 is not too high then How the hell Asif caught up with that level where in normal individuals it is only 0.4 ng per ml?

2. Show me at least two Cases where both the reading from same analysis have got same value.(Practically not possible at all)

3. Why the hell WADA has settled level of 2.0 ng per ml where normal body can produce level up to 0.4 ng per ml?

vaibhav mehta added 25 Minutes and 35 Seconds later...

Well Here I have explore the Clinical Chemistry book though it is of USA author where I prefer UK author more.
But it will give you idea,How can two analysis of same sample give different figure?

The aims of this study were to determine the interindividual variability in nandrolone excretion patterns and kinetics after the administration of [13C]nandrolone to healthy volunteers and to determine the influence of physical effort on the urinary excretion of labeled nandrolone metabolites

Check.

vaibhav mehta added 42 Minutes and 55 Seconds later...

1. How should I know. Explain why theres such a large difference of .8

2. I never said that its gonna be exactly the same. For example, if the result was 6.2 and 6.4 or 6.2 and 5.9 or something similar, then yes, your argument is correct. But I've never heard of one pee pee sample being 6.2 and the other being 5.3, although its the same.
Ya and I said that it can vary up to 0.8-1.0 ng per ml.If you know that Nandrolone test is very inaccurate then you should also know that you can't trace nandrolone directly rather you have to trace it metabolites in urine as Drug has already passed live metabolism.Now there are two indexes of their Metabolites where you never find same ratio(I have provided you link for this but it has written best in my text book).There is no official Error value of 0.8 but Practically We use it.

In conclusion, the effect of hCG was a stimulation of NA excretion in all subjects, which constitutes strong support for the endogenous origin of low basal NA excretion. The comparative kinetics of NA UER, plasma E2, and E2/T ratio suggest a contribution of the aromatase process to nandrolone biosynthesis in man.

Source.


3. How should I know? Also, Nandrolone testing is very inaccurate. Have you seen the list of athletes banned, but didn't take nandrolone?
I have mentioned False Positive test in last page.


However, I'm going right after your statements, because studies completely contradict what you're saying. Are you better / greater than the studies?

Not at all but I have better sources than all of you so I trust my informations more in medicine than you.
If you are so desperate to prove people wrong than just buy book ''Lippincott's Pharmacology written by Mary j. Mycek''.There you find 49 pages about Nandrolone and other anabolic steroids.These informations are just so much in font of these random Internet links and thus it is worth to trust them.

Also I am not a sports doctor but I have worked in Lab as part time job in Moscow.And I have worked with these type of errors.
Even i can't prescribe anyone Nandrolone as a Drug.It needs to get sign from higher authority.Nowhere in the book it is written that If you treating Breast cancer by using Nandrolone then you have to stop your treatment when urine level reaches 10 ng per ml but People use it in clinical practice.
So Nobody give treatment with anabolic steroids if their level exceed 10 ng per ml and thus you won't find this statement anywhere on Internet except in Clinical books.

 

[Inbox24]

What a shame, otherwise Pakistan would have a fearsome bowling attack:

Akhtar
Asif
Tanvir

 

[angryangy]

Thread summary:

Wall of text

You're not a sports doctor

Unless you are, this is possibly the most terrible argument you could make.

 

[Sureshot]

Originally Posted by Site
A limit of 2 ng per ml of urine (set by the International Olympic Committee) is the maximum concentration thought possible to occur in human body by 'natural means', and if this is exceeded the drug test is considered positive. Since some samples given by athletes have shown levels up to 100 times higher than this, the conclusion is that the athletes must have been taking extra quantities of the drug to enhance their performance.

Originally Posted by UCLA
Studies performed by UCLA's Catlin and by researchers at the Cologne lab, then under the International Olympic Committee, showed in 2000 and 2002 that a wide range of nutritional supplements commonly taken by elite athletes were contaminated with nandrolone and other steroids.

Catlin's research, furthermore, made clear that it was not difficult for tests to distinguish a contamination victim from a cheater. His paper noted that an athlete taking nandrolone in a determined effort to cheat would show levels higher than 100,000 nanograms per milliliter, or parts per billion, of urine.

The 100,000 number is purely hypothetical. There have been no records of such a number. As contradicted in the first quote.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

The Actual matter is that Sureshot, We can't compare Olympic athletes with Cricket players.
As I have said before but I don't know What Zmario is trying to prove?

If someone is racing 100 meters in Olympic than it would be the matter about some seconds and He can effort to have maximum unprescribed amount of drug because He won't have to perform for next 4 years and He can avoid side effects with antagonist after the event.Same time Cricketers have to play 12 months in the year and they can't effort to have higher amount of any Steroids because by that way you can perform something extra and with in 2 years your career will end with unacceptable metabolic side effects.

I am sure about all my statements and I am repeating again:
1. The difference between Test A and Test B is logical and it has all to do with method which We use to reveal anabolic steroids from Urine.
The difference can vary between 0.8-1.2 ng per ml though it is not a law but it has been used in Clinical practice.

2. The amount of Nandrolone 6.2 for a cricketer is just a High amount because in all the cricketers in the world you won't found level of Nandrolone more than 1.8-2.0.
If Asif would have Swimmer who going to perform in Olympics than I can understand his level as Athletes administer 10 times more glucose and adrenergic/adrenalin(Energetic) components than a Cricketer.( and still they need to give a big explanation for their high level)

 

[Chetan0304]

Ban him for life! Zero tolerance for drug cheats!

zMario: Stop trying to defend your drug-cheating countryman. Him and Akhtar make your Pakistan team look like real saints.

Agree^^

Asif had a great bowling action which always was worth to see..



It's all end of Pakistan bowling attack as the main Weapon is Lost!!

 

[smssia0112]

Asif deserves a big ban, no less

The only thing I am concerned about is the HUGE difference (well huge when talking about something like this) in the nandrolone levels.

They are the same pee pee, so why are they so different? This needs to seriously be looked into.

I am not defending Asif, but calling him a dirty little cheat will do you no good when one Shane Warne took drugs as well. Is he a dirty little cheat too?

In the 2002 Asian Games, there was a female athlete who tested positive. However, she was able to miraculously prove that the urine sample was not her's.

When she was drug tested again, her DNA did not match the one of the pee pee that was allegedly submitted, as well as her pee pee not having any drugs in it.

So who knows.

The other thing is Asif cannot be this stupid. He got away with it in 2006, and I am nearly 99% sure this guy is not this much of an idiot. Especially after talking to him, he was quite intelligent (well about Cricket anyway).

Foul play possibly? Anyway, I can't say much on that since I have no proof, but if it is nandrolone, and it is him taking it (only God can know for sure), then he should be left to rot by his fans, country, and the PCB for the shame he has brought to Pakistan.

Warne took drugs and was punished. The relevancy to this case is zero, as is that athlete that had her urine switched.

You say you're not defending him but it certainly seems that you are defending him.

 

[Cricketdude]

Ban him for life!

 

[King Pietersen]

Haha, firstly claiming that Sachin is a worse player than Inzamam, now trying to make Asif look innocent. I've never read more biased crap in my life. Mohammed Asif should be sterilized, he's a complete moron, how he got away with the drug taking, and then drug smuggling to still be playing is beyond me, but to have been caught with drugs in his body again is just ridiculous. Alongside Shoaib, Pakistan have made some truely moronic cricketers, hope he gets banned for life. I'm sure the PCB will let him off though :.

 

[metallics2006]

No comments from me...for the time being.

 

[vaibhav mehta]

Ok Before you search random Internet site let me clear it to you.

Regarding to 100,000 ng per ml,it is impossibly to achieve practically.
Below in the chart you get the idea that only by giving maximum tolerance dose of Nandrolone,you can achieve 1000 ng per ml only and that is way lower than 100,000.

Now think to achieve 100,000 ng per ml Nandrolone in urine you have to give How much exogenous Nandrolone?
Our body can't tolerate that much exogenous Nandrolone at all and that is why I told 6.2 is just high.

Mean urine concentration profiles for 19-NA after single im injection of 50 or 150 mg nandrolone decanoate in healthy men (semilogarithmic scale). On d 90 and 180, in addition to the mean, the lowest (1.84 on d 90 and 0.72 on d 180) and the highest (39.7 on d 90 and 4.06 on d 180) measurable levels (nanograms per milliliter) are depicted.

vaibhav mehta added 3 Minutes and 23 Seconds later...

Now check How generally Androgens are traced in Urine?
As I told you can't trace it in Urine as pure form.You have to trace metabolites 19 NA and 19 NE.

After Tracing these metabolites,a manual chart is been prepared according to possibility when did Suspect administer Nandrolone.

Now every time you trace these elements they will be in different ratios(Even in same analysis check out this ratio 1:2 is different from 3:4)
That is because We take BLQ,below limit of qualification as 0.6 as standard Value.

CV, Geometric coefficient of variation (percentage); BLQ, below limit of quantification (0.6 ng/ml). For calculation of the mean, BLQ values were replaced by 0.3 ng/ml (1/2 x LOQ). If more than one third of the samples were BLQ, no mean value was calculated.

vaibhav mehta added 0 Minutes and 57 Seconds later...

Anyway I appreciate your interest but this is a Cricket Chat forum.And If you still want to know more details then We can meet on MSN where I'll send you PDF file with 290 pages and it will be all clear to you.