South Africa's tour of India - October/December 2015

[War]

Unsporting ?

LOL

People have already brought up the England series. I would like to go further back and bring up the India tour of NZ 2002/3. The second test I think it was, with a lush green lawn provided as a pitch. Both India and NZ were shot out in the 90s. Not a single 50 scored. Sanjay Bangar was getting wickets for crying out loud. The only complaints heard back then were from Indian fans and media who wanted heads rolling before the world cup in South Africa. I dont know how that pitch was any more sporting than this one, but not a peep was heard against the playing conditions.

As has been pointed out. There is a very obvious bias against spinning wickets over green ones, and it is absolutely ridiculous IMO

Nah i disagree with that NZ 2002/03 comparison. It was a gross exaggeration to suggest the wickets for that series were like a lush green lawn. It was just ultimate seaming conditions that was amplying by general overcast conditions overhead. ICC would never allow a international surface to be played on a green lawn, heck if a pitch has too much dampness on it following a rain international (that might make it look like old uncovered wickets) the players won't come on.

The NZ 2002/03 pitches were not dissimilar to many normal ultimate pacer friendly decks I can recall over the years for example:

- recent nottingham test when AUS were bowled out

- England vs Windies @ Headingly 2000

- AUS vs SRI at Darwin 2004

- AUS vs PAK in ENG 2010

- When SA bowled out AUS & NZ for sub 50 in 2011

- Lords 2005 and many periods throughout 2005 Ashes

- Many periods of test matches in ENG/SA you get conditions like the NZ/IND 2002/03 that last for a session or two instead of an entire day or series, but those pitches were certainly not under-prepared at all.

 

[grkrama]

contrary to what you assume it was under prepared
2nd Test: New Zealand v India at Hamilton, Dec 19-22, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

NZ skipper Fleming conceded that the Hamilton strip appeared to be dangerously underprepared when he said, "The groundsmen haven't had the opportunity to prepare the wicket and, with that in mind, it seems to be a very difficult wicket to bat on with the ball seaming around."

Indian Cricket Fever - Underprepared pitch mars 2nd India-NZ Test

After that, all hell broke lose on one of the shabbiest strips of 22 yards on which cricket has ever been played. When the ball does things which surprise the bowler 9 times out of 10, there is no way in which a batsman can be reasonably expected to face down deliveries, let alone hit them around confidently. All the bowler needs to do is to maintain a line and length, then sit back and watch for the ball to do something completely random. This is precisely what Kiwi medium-pacer Tuffey did, and it fetched him dividends. The lesser of the main NZ pacemen on display, fast-medium bowler Bond who is capable of bowling 140 Kph deliveries, was irresponsibly bowling short, fully cognizant of the fact that he could be endangering batsmen on a pitch which was already highly unpredictable.

At the end of the day, in spite of reducing India to a dismal 92-8, a circumspect Fleming appeared unhappy about the state of the pitch. "It's not the kind of wicket we ask for," he said, mindful of the fact that his own fragile batting lineup could be shot out for a far smaller score which could even rival the recent benchmark set by Pakistan in scoring only 50-odd runs in both innings against Australia, albeit on a much flatter Sharjah pitch. Fleming has reason for concern, with his batsmen among the most injury-prone in international cricket, and easily susceptible to breakdown if fast bowler Zaheer Khan, the quickest of the bowlers on either team, were to bend his back here.

 

[PokerAce]

@aditya123 @grkrama Well just to mention you two guys here as a correction, I actually agree that Bangalore wasn't that bad am still laughing at the fact that IND choose Binny over another seamer. Was more speaking of 1st test and this one regarding to assistance for spin & yes also SA batsmen even IND had their deficiencies playing spin. Cause I'm almost sure Elgar & Harmer will never look this threatening ever again in their career over the course of a series.

So yea @PokerAce I know it takes a special type of preparation to prepare and green top, turner even a perfect bouncy wicket.

But a bad turner is caused by some level of under-preparation or limited preparation, since all a curator has to is start if dry (maybe leave no grass for day 1) that dooesn't take days to do. So when it starts turning day 4/5 levels on day 1 - it will only get worse & game inevitably ends in a few days.

Again, I don't agree on the under-prepared part. Today at the toss/pitch report, both Gavaskar and Pollock were surprised by how the pitch was still intact and how it had not deteriorated as much as they thought it would on day 1. For the most part of the day, when SA batsmen applied themselves, and weren't hoiking cross batted shots, against the turn, they had a largely comfortable time in the middle. Especially Amla and Faf. So it clearly shows the people went overboard about the pitch on day 1 itself, expecting it completely gone by day three. However the pitch report clearly shows that the pitch had been greatly under-estimated, and predictions of the pitch being gone by day 3 were not correct, and the pitch had not deteriorated as much as they initially thought it would. This is by Pollock's own admission !!

Edit - I couldn't find pollock's quote but here is Sunny's

"The pitch hasn't really deteriorated. Patience is the key today for South Africa. This is an Indian pitch and it will turn. Unfortunately the batsmen from both the sides have not shown the determination to bat on this and that is why we saw so many wickets fall. If South Africa are patient, it will take them close, but it is going to be India's day," reckons Sunil Gavaskar.

The pitch was holding, it was steady over the three days and not continously deteriorating, as people thought it would. This by definition is not an under-prepared wicket.

 

[War]

I strongly disagree with that, mohali wasnt a rank turner by any means, if batsman of both sides dont have talent to conjure up 50s or 100s its not the pitch's fault!.

This pitch was the only one that is "unsporting"

Last one like this was in 04 which was actually way to much of a minefield than this one, still a pitch like this once a decade to test out the NO1 ranked sides i dont think that does any harm to test cricket!

Again mohali was not a rank turner! one test in a decade with a pitch like this only spices things up not detriates![DOUBLEPOST=1448637913][/DOUBLEPOST]

Hey we made moeen ali look threatening on a timid wkt for spin so cut our batsman some slack to make elgars and harmers look like wiz again in good spin wkts!

Vijay and pujara played pretty well in mohali!

Well Moeen is a good spinner & while people have tended to under-rate him he has shown that IND series was no fluke and he almost like Sakib these days in being considered a genuine spin bowling all-rounder.

Harmer looks no different to those stock defensive spinners that SA have produced over the years like Paul Harris, Claude Henderson, Clive Eksteen, Robin Peterson, Johan Botha - he doesn't turn the ball like Pat Symcox/Paul Adams/Nicky Boje did.

 

[PokerAce]

contrary to what you assume it was under prepared
2nd Test: New Zealand v India at Hamilton, Dec 19-22, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

NZ skipper Fleming conceded that the Hamilton strip appeared to be dangerously underprepared when he said, "The groundsmen haven't had the opportunity to prepare the wicket and, with that in mind, it seems to be a very difficult wicket to bat on with the ball seaming around."

Indian Cricket Fever - Underprepared pitch mars 2nd India-NZ Test

Yeah I remember this series. A perfect example of the double reaction to pitches I was talking about.

The home captain accepts that the pitch was underprepared and then you have people falling over backwards to defend that wicket, ever after all these years !

 

[PokerAce]

Well Moeen is a good spinner & while people have tended to under-rate him he has shown that IND series was no fluke and he almost like Sakib these days in being considered a genuine spin bowling all-rounder.

Harmer looks no different to those stock defensive spinners that SA have produced over the years like Paul Harris, Claude Henderson, Clive Eksteen, Robin Peterson, Johan Botha - he doesn't turn the ball like Pat Symcox/Paul Adams/Nicky Boje did.

Based on performances against India, Moenn is the greatest spinner playing today. If India as spinners like Nagpur when Moenn and England tour next year, India are doomed :P

I mean it, in all seriousness. No one who saw India's tour to England last year will disagree. Indian batsmen probably go to bed every night praying they don't have to face Moenn Ali the next day

 

[War]

contrary to what you assume it was under prepared
2nd Test: New Zealand v India at Hamilton, Dec 19-22, 2002 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

NZ skipper Fleming conceded that the Hamilton strip appeared to be dangerously underprepared when he said, "The groundsmen haven't had the opportunity to prepare the wicket and, with that in mind, it seems to be a very difficult wicket to bat on with the ball seaming around."

Indian Cricket Fever - Underprepared pitch mars 2nd India-NZ Test

Well firstly i saw that series live and never heard of this cricketnetwork website before ha, so I'm not sure where those Fleming comments came from, cricinfo articles from the time don't seem to quote him saying that.

The poster above said the pitch was like a "lush green lawn" that was inaccurate, the video evidence shows that.

The pitch was not under-prepared to quote the cricinfo which is a more accurate reflection of what i recall as i mentioned before New Zealand want a win, not prepared to settle for a draw | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo - the pitch was ok and prepared as in normal NZ wicket would. But all the rain that thunder storms that happened during the test and general overhead conditions made the ball hoop around extra crazy.

Also you could argue it might had acted a bit like a old sticky wicket at times because it was under covers for so long, some dampness obviously went on to the surface.

 

[Markkkkk]

SA has been poor. I'm not doubting that. Apart from AB and Hash, who are proven test batsmen, everyone needs to be looked at. Their only saving grace has been the fast bowling. But, there's no doubt the series so far has been unsporting.

I feel you're been a bit harsh on some of them. First off Imran Tahir showed he is the best spinner in SA and can be considered world class. Even though he didnt win a test for us he had an average of 13. Elgar also played well in a couple of innings.

 

[PokerAce]

Well firstly i saw that series live and never heard of this cricketnetwork website before ha, so I'm not sure where those Fleming comments came from, cricinfo articles from the time don't seem to quote him saying that.

The poster above said the pitch was like a "lush green lawn" that was inaccurate, the video evidence shows that.

The pitch was not under-prepared to quote the cricinfo which is a more accurate reflection of what i recall as i mentioned before New Zealand want a win, not prepared to settle for a draw | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo - the pitch was ok and prepared as in normal NZ wicket would. But all the rain that thunder storms that happened during the test and general overhead conditions made the ball hoop around extra crazy.

Also you could argue it might had acted a bit like a old sticky wicket at times because it was under covers for so long, some dampness obviously went on to the surface.

See this is what I am saying. The captain himself is quoted to have said, that pitches were under-prepared. Its not some random guy, who works at the ground, or some pundit. Its the captain and he says the wickets were underprepared. Even then you are contradicting the captain to say no no he is wrong, the pitches were not under-prepared, but aimed at giving the home side a shot at a win, instead of a draw. I mean he is the Captain of the team, surely he knows more about the state of the pitch.

This is classic putting a positive spin to a bad wicket, outside the sub-continent. The same thing happens in India and if say tomorrow Kohli were to say the same thing about Nagpur, regardless of how obscure was the website he said it to, he would get slaughtered by the same people. Then no one will try and give it a positive spin and say, no no Kohli is wrong, it was just aimed at India getting a better shot of winning as India were prepared to settle for a draw.

If this doesn't show to you the blatant double standards that exist with regard to pitches in Asia and those outside Asia, then nothing will.

 

[War]

Again, I don't agree on the under-prepared part. Today at the toss/pitch report, both Gavaskar and Pollock were surprised by how the pitch was still intact and how it had not deteriorated as much as they thought it would on day 1. For the most part of the day, when SA batsmen applied themselves, and weren't hoiking cross batted shots, against the turn, they had a largely comfortable time in the middle. Especially Amla and Faf. So it clearly shows the people went overboard about the pitch on day 1 itself, expecting it completely gone by day three. However the pitch report clearly shows that the pitch had been greatly under-estimated, and predictions of the pitch being gone by day 3 were not correct, and the pitch had not deteriorated as much as they initially thought it would. This is by Pollock's own admission !!

Edit - I couldn't find pollock's quote but here is Sunny's



The pitch was holding, it was steady over the three days and not continously deteriorating, as people thought it would. This by definition is not an under-prepared wicket.

I don't disagree, I think i even heard Ashwin say at the post game interview he thought the pace of the spin was slowing up a bit when SA were batting in 2nd innings - especially during the Amla/FAF partnership. Who knows what could have happened if the game went into a 4th day, maybe it was just a period where it was spinning slowly etc...

 

[War]

See this is what I am saying. The captain himself is quoted to have said, that pitches were under-prepared. Its not some random guy, who works at the ground, or some pundit. Its the captain and he says the wickets were underprepared. Even then you are contradicting the captain to say no no he is wrong, the pitches were not under-prepared, but aimed at giving the home side a shot at a win, instead of a draw. I mean he is the Captain of the team, surely he knows more about the state of the pitch.

This is classic putting a positive spin to a bad wicket, outside the sub-continent. The same thing happens in India and if say tomorrow Kohli were to say the same thing about Nagpur, regardless of how obscure was the website he said it to, he would get slaughtered by the same people. Then no one will try and give it a positive spin and say, no no Kohli is wrong, it was just aimed at India getting a better shot of winning as India were prepared to settle for a draw.

If this doesn't show to you the blatant double standards that exist with regard to pitches in Asia and those outside Asia, then nothing will.

I'm questioning the veracity of the website who quoted Fleming since this isn't the first time I've had this discussion about how good/bad that 2002/03 wickets were. You ever heard of the cricketnetwork site before? It a series I recorded on tape 12 years ago (although the tapes have fungus now unfortunately), have the post match commentary and never once saw/heard Fleming say that.

If it was cricinfo, NZ Herald etc i'd happily accept it, thus I have my suspicions about if Fleming actually said that. However how the cricinfo which I believe we all believe is a trusted known website reported the scenario's of that series, especially the second test is in line with what I said.

There is no double standard on my part, that NZ pitch conditions (not overhead) in general was no different to other seamer friendly decks i mentioned before. By no means was it "lush green lawn" which is essentially the over the top point I'm addressing.

 

[PokerAce]

^ @War No I am not accusing you of bias, personally, of course not. Its just a general tendency I have noticed whereby a pitch in Asia wavering from the norm, gets a lot more stick than a pitch outside Asia would get for the same amount of wavering.

The point I was making was that you read that quote on some obscure website, and want to question the source, okay fine. However if tomorrow Kohli was quoted as saying the same thing would you, actually look at the source, before lashing out at the pitch being under-prepared, probably not.

 

[PokerAce]

@War anyway here is another link to the Fleming quote -

Batsmen won~~t find it easy on this pitch: Fleming - Thatscricket

Hamilton: New Zealand captain Stephen Fleming conceded on Friday it could be difficult for his batsmen to score runs in the second and final cricket Test against India at the Westpac Park. "It's going to be very tough for batsmen throughout this Test. We've got to bat really well on this pitch," said Fleming. India crashed to 92 for 8 in its first innings at stumps on the second day, with fast bowlers Daryl Tuffey (4 for 12) and Shane Bond (3 for 33) doing the maximum damage. The first day's play was abandoned without a ball being bowled on Thursday due to rain. "It's not the kind of wicket we ask for, but it's a pretty fresh wicket," said Fleming, whose team lead 1-0 in the two-match series following a 10-wicket win in the opening Test at Wellington last week. "The groundsmen haven't had the opportunity to prepare the wicket and, with that in mind, it seems to be a very difficult wicket to bat on with the ball seaming around," he said.

Its not that I support Nagpur as the ideal test wicket, of course I don't, but I do defend Nagpur from what I think is undeserved criticism. The Fleming quote does show that actual under-prepared wickets outside the sub-continent, get away with criticism, in the name of testing the batsman's technique, while a pitch that offers help to spinners in Asia is slaughtered.

Its not Indian fans cared about the pitch, under-prepared or not, or had fire burning on it, we dont care. Two sides play on the same pitch, if the other side can compete on it why can't you.

When the series happened, we had knives out for all our players. We were angry with out players. I find that anger missing in SA fans. Its all directed at the pitch. Its as if SA fans and players alike were resigned to just losing on the wicket.

 

[PokerAce]

Also I found this England likely venue for India-Pakistan Test series next year: Reports : Cricket, News - India Today

I have posted this in the England forum, but since I see England fans on this board, I would like to ask again - all very tentative as of now, but how do you feel about hosting the series - Yay, Nay or Meh?

Personally I love the idea of an India Pak test series in England. Something about it just feels perfect, I can't put my finger on it, yet, but there it is.

 

[abhi_jacko]

Also I found this England likely venue for India-Pakistan Test series next year: Reports : Cricket, News - India Today

I have posted this in the England forum, but since I see England fans on this board, I would like to ask again - all very tentative as of now, but how do you feel about hosting the series - Yay, Nay or Meh?

Massive Nay on this and on the December series in Sri Lanka.

I dont know why BCCI is so desperate to resume bilateral ties with Pakistan