Vettori or Kallis?

[irottev]

How many centuries did Warne get out of curiosity? Oh wait, none. Oh and how ironic that it was Vettori to get him out on 99.

 

[Bluebagger]

How many test hat-tricks has Daniel Vettori taken?

Typical. Surprised you didn't go to your usual hahahahaha when you don't have anything to come back with :sarcasm

Hahahahaha!!

There was no need for anything to "come back with" you rolled out some useless excuse about the rest of the team being so poor that Vettori gets defended all the time, good bowlers still take wickets in those scenarios. Vettori is still an ordinary bowler.

 

[Howsie]

Wait, your only a good bowler if your've taken hat tricks?

 

[Bluebagger]

Who said that?

 

[irottev]

Hundreds are important for batters/allrounders. Hat-tricks aren't important for bowlers -> there's many great bowlers who never took a hat trick yet no great batsman are low on hundreds.

 

[Bluebagger]

I take it that Vettori has failed to take the ultimate accolade for a bowler then.

 

[Howsie]

And?.......

 

[Bluebagger]

And what?

 

[King Pietersen]

This is why I don't like these threads. Everyone has different opions. Some are ridiculous like King Pietersens and it just turns into arguments.

How about we just decide they're both pretty damn good. in the last 24 months Vettori has been the leading all-rounder in the world though and that's the point.

I don't think anything I've said is ridiculous. I rate Vettori, just think there's alot of hyperbole around him. Take out his wickets against Bangladesh and he has 53 wickets at 35 in Test cricket in the last 2 years. Graeme Swann has 48 wickets at 30, so in 4 fewer Tests he has 5 wickets less than Vettori, and he has played on some terribly flat tracks, some of the wickets he played on in the West Indies were some of the flattest cricket pitches I've ever seen.

Another interesting point to consider, is that after the same amount of Tests played. Kallis had scored 7452 runs at 56.45 and taken 137 wickets at 31, which considering he's a 5th bowler, that's bloody good going. Kallis is a far better batsman than Vettori, there's no doubts about that at all, and I actually think Kallis is a more useful Test bowler than Daniel Vettori as well, he certainly gets his wickets at a better rate, as his overall Test record proves.

Vettori has been the in-form player over the last 2 years, I can't really dispute that, he's been a fine player for NZ cricket. But, if I had to pick between the 2 players for a Test XI, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd be picking Jacques Kallis. Even given his lack of form in the last 2 years. Kallis will go down as an all-time great of the game, and one of the great all-rounders of all-time, Vettori will go down simply as a legend of NZ cricket. His record just doesn't stand up against the great all-rounders across his whole career.

As for Vettori being the 2nd best Test spinner in the world, ignoring all other factors and taking only the bowling into consideration, here's a comparison of stats in the last 2 years, with wickets against Bangladesh taken out:

Harbhajan Singh - 94 wickets at 32.93 with 4 5fers
Muttiah Muralitharan - 71 wickets at 30.71 with 5 5fers
Monty Panesar - 53 wickets at 39.28 with 2 5fers
Daniel Vettori - 53 wickets at 35.39 with 3 5fers
Shakib Al-Hasan - 48 wickets at 25.18 with 5 5fers
Graeme Swann - 48 wickets at 30.39 with 2 5fers
Paul Harris - 48 wickets at 36.97 with 1 5fer
Anil Kumble - 46 wickets at 43.19 with 2 5fers
Ajantha Mendis - 37 wickets at 31.62 with 2 5fers
Rangana Herath - 31 wickets at 32.54 with 4 5fers

On bowling alone, I'd take Harbhajan, Muralitharan, Shakib, Swann and Mendis ahead of Vettori. They've all performed alot better with the ball than Vettori in the last 2 years. I'd say if he played for a stronger side, his place would be under threat. He simply doesn't get enough wickets. The only thing he has stats wise over the rest of the top 10 is economy, and that's hardly way more impressive than anyone elses in that top 10 to justify him being the 2nd best spinner in the world.

I like Vettori, and think he's a good cricketer for NZ. But if he was playing for a better side, he'd not be as highly rated. He wouldn't score as many runs because he wouldn't have to save a poor batting line-up from collapsing so often, he doesn't get enough wickets against the best sides and outside his economy rate there's nothing exceptional about him. I just find him hugely over-rated. Quality bloke, done superb things for the NZ cricket team, but an over-rated Test bowler.

 

[Howsie]

That's fair enough tbh, you can't argue with anything your've said but....

Looking at those stats your've posted, Vettori's average really isn't that bad when you consider what he brings to a team with the bat. Harbhajan averages less then two more but he's play's a lot more cricket on spin friendly conditions, and I have to ask has Shakib's record against the Windies been taken out (because that team did lose to Bangladesh afterall).

If I really wanted to I could probably argue that Swann and Mendis haven't been playing for long enough (both have played test cricket for a year now isn't it?)

 

[nz0003]

On bowling alone, I'd take Harbhajan, Muralitharan, Shakib, Swann and Mendis ahead of Vettori. They've all performed alot better with the ball than Vettori in the last 2 years. I'd say if he played for a stronger side, his place would be under threat. He simply doesn't get enough wickets. The only thing he has stats wise over the rest of the top 10 is economy, and that's hardly way more impressive than anyone elses in that top 10 to justify him being the 2nd best spinner in the world.

I like Vettori, and think he's a good cricketer for NZ. But if he was playing for a better side, he'd not be as highly rated. He wouldn't score as many runs because he wouldn't have to save a poor batting line-up from collapsing so often, he doesn't get enough wickets against the best sides and outside his economy rate there's nothing exceptional about him. I just find him hugely over-rated. Quality bloke, done superb things for the NZ cricket team, but an over-rated Test bowler.

You say that if Vettori was in another team his spot would be under threat, well that's just stupid. The reason his economy is so low and his average is so high is because batsman sit on him, and attack from the other end.

Vettori probably doesn't take wickets enough, but he creates more than anyone else in the world from the other end. I don't know if you saw the game today but Bond can thank Vettori for those wickets in his second spell, he kept it tight at one end while Bond was bowling out of his skin. His pressure was exactly what we needed.

You also say that Vettori wouldn't score as many runs if he had a stronger batting line up, well that's pretty obvious. It's like saying Kallis wouldn't score as many runs if he had the world's best openers and no. 3. The point is Vettori makes runs when it counts, when the team needs them the most. It's bloody hard to come out with the team at 60/6 and put on a counter attack to get the team a decent total, he does that time after time.

I don't think anything I've said is ridiculous

The way you under-rate him is ridiculous.

 

[King Pietersen]

I appreciate that Vettori offers more with his batting and leadership than say Swann, Harbhajan, Shakib and Mendis, but I was replying to irrotev's point that Vettori's the 2nd best spinner in the world after Murali. I don't think there's any doubt that Vettori offers more to a team than most of those guys, but in terms of his bowling alone, I'd say there are better bowlers.

Swann has only played 4 games less than Vettori, so I'd say he's been playing long enough.

Well, I could argue that the way you over-rate him is ridiculous. Just have to agree to disagree.

 

[nz0003]

Well, I could argue that the way you over-rate him is ridiculous. Just have to agree to disagree.

Indeed we do. Good argument though, it never gets old.

 

[Cricketman]

Enough with your silly comparisons, we all know Kumble was king.

 

[Dare]

by what KP showed I will go with Shakib, legend!