Vettori or Kallis?

[CG123]

I was Lol about the Aussie sod who said New Zealand has only ever produced three world class players.

The names Shane Bond, third greatest S/R ever in Test Match cricket, he is a mile better than your Johnson and Lee's.

You could see from yesterday, that Vettori was bowling in to the wind around the wicket, TRYING TO BOWL MAIDEN'S AND NOT TAKE WICKETS. The idea of that was to build up pressure for the down wind end and attack from there.
Most of the time Vettori is often not trying to take wickets, he is merely trying to tie them down so Bond (At least now that he's back) can take wickets at the other end.
You could see his class from that when the NZ pacers were bowling the Akmals were traveling at four an over, but when Vettori came on they slowed down to 2-3 an over and that led to a wicket from a stupid shot.

It's alright just to look at stats, but there are so much out side factors such as pitch, opposition, bowler at other end, position of the match etc.

 

[Dare]

third greatest SR in what 20 tests?

 

[irottev]

On bowling alone, I'd take Harbhajan, Muralitharan, Shakib, Swann and Mendis ahead of Vettori.

You're a moron then if you're willing to pick bowlers purely based off their average. Any of the asian bowlers have bowled in spin friendly conditions. Swann is lightyears worse than Vettori. Shakib had a good year, but doubt he'll repeat it. Mendis has been worked out. Lately he's performed poorly and Harbhijan, when's the last time he did anything? The Indians want him sacked. Vettori > All of them except Murili. Plus Vettori's a far better batsman than all of those players.

He wouldn't score as many runs because he wouldn't have to save a poor batting line-up from collapsing so often

Do you know anything about cricket? Well obviously very little. this is a disadvantage to him you moron. The other batsmen get out and collapse, the bowlers have their tail's up and he has wickets falling around him and has to bat with the tail often playing aggressive shots and hitting out. If anything there's all the extra pressure on his back as captain and having to save the side, it makes batting a lot harder. You're probably someone who's fat and sits on the couch all day, but as someone who plays a lot of sport I can tell you that when there's pressure on you to deliver it makes things really hard.

The fact that you'd take Kallis over him is fair enough, I can see the reasoning. There's room for both players in an XI though because both are so consistent with bat and ball. But your argument that he's a nil spinner if absurd. Especially considering many greats of the game rate him second behind Murili. He's undisputedly the best left arm bowler.

You wish he was a pom. That's why.

third greatest SR in what 20 tests?

And? We have to put up with all the Tendulkar is god rubbish, the Hussey is Mr Cricket. The Pietersen is the best batter blah blah and NZ can't have 1 or 2 good players. Swann has played 12 games and he's the best thing since sliced bread, but Bond who's played 18 - his test stats don't mean ████?

Shakib has played 14 tests yet you think he's a champion and Bond who's played more with a quite outstanding test record matched by pretty much no one in the history of the game is laughed off as being a great bowler by you?

Fact is,
Bond > any other bowler in the world
Vettori > any spinner except Murili.

If you don't agree you're wrong. Sorry to break it to you.

 

[Dare]

And? You bitter pricks are pathetic. We have to put up with all the Tendulkar is god rubbish, the Hussey is Mr Cricket. The Pietersen is the best batter blah blah and NZ can't have 1 or 2 good players.

easy there grumpy? you fall of the bed this morning?

all I was saying that he has the best SR after less then 20 games. If he ends up playing 50+ tests and his strike rate is still below 40 then he can go down as the best of all time. If he finishes with a strike rate in the mid 40s it will also be really impressive.
Strike rate that is impressive is Waqar Younis, somthing like 43 from 87 matches.

Don understand where I said anything bad against Bond...

Shakib has played 14 tests yet you think he's a champion and Bond who's played more with a quite outstanding test record matched by pretty much no one in the history of the game is laughed off as being a great bowler by you?

Sarcasm much, you kind of missed it.

Fact is,
Bond > any other bowler in the world
Vettori > any spinner except Murili.

Id take Steyn at this moment. Bond can go down at any minute.

If you don't agree you're wrong. Sorry to break it to you.

since when can a persons opinion be wrong??

 

[irottev]

I think I misunderstood your posts then. ^ If I did then sorry. And yes, wrong side of the bed for sure. These threads just piss me off so much. The players are pretty much incomparable and now we've gone off track thanks to KP with some spinner comparison thing.

I don't think anyone's calling Bond one of the best bowlers of all time, that's going a bit far, I agree if he can play to around 50 tests and keep in in the same area etc. THe point is, he's on track and for him to have stats better than a lot of the greats is great going. Even if it's a brief time.

 

[Highlander999]

With the Kiwi's here Dan. I'm not gonna be like you and go and pull stats cause I can't be arsed. However, you just have to look at what Vettori has had to deal with. A New Zealand batting line-up which is more up and down then your average woman. He has also had to bowl with a pretty medicore bowling line-up in recent years. Kallis on the other hand has had a pretty superb batting line-up to support him as well as better bowlers in the XI to also contribute. Add to the fact that Vettori is skip and personally I would say there is very little between them. Like I said on the first page I would take both.

Oh and for the record. Vettori > Swann.

Oh and for the double record. Must be irottev's time of the month cause he is being a right hormonal arse

 

[King Pietersen]

No need to take things so bloody personally irrotev. Frankly the insults weren't called for. If you disagree with my opinion then fair enough, I'm willing to accept that, but being called a moron etc just doesn't rub well with me. I enjoy my discussions with Howsie, he's passionate about his opinions and argues them well without feeling the need to stoop to the lows of personal insults.

I do have a few things to say though. First off, I apoligise for being abit hasty in my views of Vettori. He's not a bad Test bowler, he's not as great a Test bowler as many like to claim, but he's not as bad as I've been attempting to make him look. He does have excellent control and he does create pressure at the other end for the other bowlers to exploit. That's all well and good, but he would need to do more than that to be considered one of the top 2 spinners in the world. He needs to take wickets, something Harbhajan, Mendis and even Swann do at a better rate than Vettori.

Your point about Harbhajan can be argued with the last NZ-India series, in NZ, where Harbhajan comprehensively outbowled Vettori across the series. Harbhajan took 16 wickets at 21, Vettori took 7 wickets at 52. The NZ line-up is notably weaker than India's, but even so, that's a massive gulf. Harbhajan is a wicket taking spinner, he's gets his wickets at a good rate, he's got good control, he's got a doosra and he's been the leading wicket-taking spinner in the world in the last 2 years. I'd take him above Vettori.

As for Swann. He plays in similar home conditions to Vettori, and he's managed to get his 48 wickets at just over 30 a piece, not over 35 a piece like Vettori. Sure he's got quite a few wickets against the West Indies, but some of those pitches he played on in the Carribbean were ridiculous. Teams could have been playing on those for 10 days and they'd not have got a result. He's again a wicket-taking spinner, which, ignoring all other aspects of their game I'd prefer to have in my team. Sure Vettori offers more as an all-round cricketer, but as a spin bowler, I rate Swann higher. Wickets win Tests.

As for the batting collapses making things harder for him. I agree with you, it does add pressure to his game, but it also makes it easier for him to make the wealth of runs that he has. It's swings and round-a-bouts, but I do massively praise him for some of the innings he's played for NZ when his team have been under pressure. It was more a throwaway point that he wouldn't be relied on as much, and hence wouldn't be making that depth of runs if he was playing for a genuinely good side. Wasn't really something I was using to talk down about him with tbh.

I'd like Daniel Vettori to be English, I'd find it difficult to find a place for him in our Test side, given his wickets don't come at a much better rate than say Panesar's, but his leadership and runs would come in handy, and he'd walk into our ODi and T20 sides. I'm certainly not jealous of New Zealand having him. If it was jealousy fueling my argument then I'd be spending a hell of alot of my time disputing the record of Sachin Tendulkar. I just don't rate the bloke as highly as you, that's all.

 

[Master Khan]

Jacques Kallis is amazing.
Vettori is good but I will have Jacques Kallis anyday

 

[Dare]

let me break it down for you.
Nobody here has said that Bond isn't a quality bowler, its just that he hasn't played for long enough to use his strike rate as something to prop him up with. Im sure that plenty of people in this thread have said that Vettori is a legend and in other threads too. Your letting a few people get to you, maybe your actually Vettori .

now let me break down bonds career for you.

2 tests in the subcontinent, in Sri Lanka with figures nowhere near his overall, 5 wickets, average 38.8, SR 70.8.
against Australia, 2 tests, 3 wickets, average 96.3, strike rate 134
bowled well in South Africa with figures more like his overall, 1 test, 5 wickets, average 26.6, strike rate 39.6.

his figures are boosted by the 6 tests against WI and Zimbabwe. Against a Zimbabwe that didnt even have their best team out there. 2 tests against Zimbabwe 13 wickets, average 9.2, sr 21.6.

Bond is a great bowler but he needs to play allot longer before he gets to the status we know he can. He needs to improve against Australia, needs to play England and South Africa (more), and show that he can do better in the sub continent.

 

[irottev]

Bond needs to improve against Australia? Ever see him destroy them in ODI cricket? And it wasn't from batsmen hitting out (bar his hattrick). 2 games isn't a huge sample, so yeah, he needs more games.

And i'm sorry KP. Wrong saide of the bed. I'm of course not Vettori, Vettori has more important things to do this morning like playing a test match. When you support a crap side like ours you want to finally be able to be proud of one of your players. With all the useless players like McIntosh, Flynn, etc. at least I can be proud that we have Bond and Vettori. I'm going a bit far saying Bond's the best bowler etc. It's excitement. He's half way through his first test back. But he's just so awesome to watch knowing that for once we have a bowler destroying another side where for the last 3 years i've had to watch our side be destroyed by other bowlers.

With Vettori, I don't think there's any doubt he's the best or second best spinner in ODI/T20 cricket. As for tests, maybe he's not as good a wicket taker as a few of the others but I rate him so highly because he doesn't have off days. He always bowls with control and does a job. On the flattest pitch in the world he can still get wickets because he doesn't rely on the conditions. He's played 90odd tests and his overall average is 34 and he had a big lean patch through the middle of his career. Lots of games in NZ. As mentioned above, he bowled into the wind because there was no one else to really do that job. Into the wind meaning it was easier for the batsman to his him straightand over midwicket as well as being unhelpful for his drift

Bowlers like Swann, Hauritz and Harris all have to cope with similar situations, unhelpful pitches. Though i'd say the pitches in England spin more these days then they ever used to. He does get assistance there, i've seen it. Vettori had a similar start to his career but he had a tough patch in the middle, now he's learnt from it all and is an auto selection. A few years ago Panesar started with a hiss and a roar but that went down hill quicky. Players wicket taking abilities generally calm down then there's more footage avaliable and sides have faced the bowlers more and get more used to them. Mendis prime example. Mendis couldn't even bowl well against our crap batting line up which is why I don't rate the guy whatsoever.

 

[Dare]

Bond needs to improve against Australia? Ever see him destroy them in ODI cricket? And it wasn't from batsmen hitting out (bar his hattrick). 2 games isn't a huge sample, so yeah, he needs more games.

Im talking test cricket, he needs to play Australia more and show he can do better against them.

Mendis couldn't even bowl well against our crap batting line up which is why I don't rate the guy whatsoever.

Mendis is a prime example of a bowler who can cut it in ODIs and 20/20s but not test cricket. In tests batsman have time to play him and look at what he is doing but in ODIs and 20/20s there isnt that kind of time and that's why he is good. In tests he can only be good if its a real spinning wicket.

 

[irottev]

He proved that in ODIs, Yes it's not test cricket, but it's the same players. He'd do it in tests also if he played more games. I was agreeing.

That was his first 2 tests by the way, those against Australia. They were high scoring draws (in AUS). Not making excuses, but i'm sure he'd do a lot better today.

 

[Dare]

He proved that in ODIs, Yes it's not test cricket, but it's the same players. He'd do it in tests also if he played more games. I was agreeing.

That was his first 2 tests by the way, those against Australia. They were high scoring draws (in AUS). Not making excuses, but i'm sure he'd do a lot better today.

he probably would, experience goes along way and they were against the Aussies in their prime.
In march we will see if he can do it, if he can last that long that is.

 

[McLOVIN]

now we are talking about Bond v Australia

Who would you prefer in your Test XI?​

• Bond
  
• Australia

 

[Bluebagger]

I was Lol about the Aussie sod who said New Zealand has only ever produced three world class players.

The names Shane Bond, third greatest S/R ever in Test Match cricket, he is a mile better than your Johnson and Lee's.

17 test matches in almost 10 years, the guy is the biggest tampon ever seen in cricket.