Ashes 2015 - Australia tour of England July/September 2015

[richowebbo]

All those talks of Aus whitewashing Eng and all those cries about Eng producing "flat" wickets so Aus' bowling wouldn't be effective. Looks like the "flat" wickets were out of courtesy and pity more than anything else, to avoid embarrassing this Aus batting lineup

You have got to love the justice cricket provides - bringing bloated heads to the ground and bursting their bubbles

So many such instances have happened in the past, but players, coaches, etc. still don't learn.

I think a lot of that flat wicket talk was nonsense. It just happened that Lords was a flat wicket, and it actually suited Australia. I mean why would you want a pitch that stops your best bowler from being effective?

Pre the NZ series I was feeling quite pessimistic, but after that series, it showed we could compete. I still felt that our batting would come up short, and in some ways it did, but it's a team game and our bowlers did a superb job.

I am delighted that Cook came out of his shell as a captain, but I still think he needs to make some more big scores, especially if Lyth and Bell are going to remain past the summer!

 

[LiveLoveABD]

Stokes and Moeen are very useful batsmen, so we could get away with picking 3 more seamers and Rashid.

That's my point. 2 quicks and Stokes, 2 spinners and Ali.

 

[richowebbo]

That's my point. 2 quicks and Stokes, 2 spinners and Ali.

No I meant Stokes and Ali plus another spinner and 3 other quicks.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

No I meant Stokes and Ali plus another spinner and 3 other quicks.

I got that. I'm advocating 2 quicks and Stokes plus two front line spinners and Ali. I'd go down that route for UAE. So, if I had to put it down-

For UAE-

Compton (batted well in the sub continent conditions and Lyth isn't exactly setting the world alight)
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Ali (I'd bat him ahead of Stokes in the sub-continent as I feel he's a brilliant player of spin)
Stokes
Buttler
Rashid
ANOTHER SPINNER (preferably a left arm orthodox)
Wood
Anderson

Yasir Shah I believe is a massive talent. He's for my money the best leggie in world cricket at the moment. I think, England can handle the reverse swing so I'm not so worried about that. If England don't live in the Ashes hang over, I believe such a composition can topple Pakistan. But, they'll need to pick 20 scalps and I don't have much faith in the spin department.

What's up with Monty?

 

[bigred]

I got that. I'm advocating 2 quicks and Stokes plus two front line spinners and Ali. I'd go down that route for UAE. So, if I had to put it down-

For UAE-

Compton (batted well in the sub continent conditions and Lyth isn't exactly setting the world alight)
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Ali (I'd bat him ahead of Stokes in the sub-continent as I feel he's a brilliant player of spin)
Stokes
Buttler
Rashid
ANOTHER SPINNER (preferably a left arm orthodox)
Wood
Anderson

Yasir Shah I believe is a massive talent. He's for my money the best leggie in world cricket at the moment. I think, England can handle the reverse swing so I'm not so worried about that. If England don't live in the Ashes hang over, I believe such a composition can topple Pakistan. But, they'll need to pick 20 scalps and I don't have much faith in the spin department.

What's up with Monty?

So you wouldn't pick Stuart Broad, who bowled so well in the UAE last time we toured there?

The only options for a third spinner are:

James Tredwell- steady and will always do a decent job

Simon Kerrigan- is left arm, with a good county record, but I think the management have seen a fragility in him, hence why he hasn't really had a chance in the last 18 months.

Adam Riley- replaced Tredwell in the Kent side last year, but is not playing well this season

Monty Panesar- can't see him ever playing for England again. Only just being trusted by his county to bowl

Liam Dawson- an all rounder, more suited to one day cricket, but is left arm and in good form with both bat and ball

Samit Patel- like Dawson, but older and fatter

Ollie Raynor- off spinner who puts in the odd decent performance for Middlesex but is far too inconsistent

Ravi Patel- might be the answer in a couple of years time. Is a left arm spinner who is getting better with every game. Still young

Danny Briggs- useless 4 day player. Very good t20 bowler

Scott Borthwick- I've noticed that he's started bowling a bit more and is taking wickets. Still has to be considered a batsman who bowls spin.

Out of all of those, right now the only guy I'd trust in a test match is Tredwell. That doesn't say a lot for the quality of our spin department. Therefore, I'd go for this team in the UAE

1. Ali
2. Cook
3. Bell
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. Rashid
9. Broad
10. Wood
11. Anderson

12. Hales
13. Taylor
14. Tredwell
15. Finn
16. Plunkett

 

[richowebbo]

I got that. I'm advocating 2 quicks and Stokes plus two front line spinners and Ali. I'd go down that route for UAE. So, if I had to put it down-

For UAE-

Compton (batted well in the sub continent conditions and Lyth isn't exactly setting the world alight)
Cook
Root
Bairstow
Ali (I'd bat him ahead of Stokes in the sub-continent as I feel he's a brilliant player of spin)
Stokes
Buttler
Rashid
ANOTHER SPINNER (preferably a left arm orthodox)
Wood
Anderson

Yasir Shah I believe is a massive talent. He's for my money the best leggie in world cricket at the moment. I think, England can handle the reverse swing so I'm not so worried about that. If England don't live in the Ashes hang over, I believe such a composition can topple Pakistan. But, they'll need to pick 20 scalps and I don't have much faith in the spin department.

What's up with Monty?

I think Monty split with his wife and then got a bit of a fondness for booze after he started getting a bit of depression. That's only from what's been reported so I don't really know.

I don't think you have got it mate! I meant Stokes PLUS 3 other quicks! I don't think Compton will get given another chance, although he should do as he is a good player. I think Lyth may be dropped and Alex Hales will come in. I would replace your 11 with Broad in place of ANOTHER SPINNER and have Wood above him in the batting order. I think our quicks will be good enough for Pakistan and Ali and Rashid will be enough, plus the odd over from Golden Arm Root!

I don't know much about the pitches in UAE though.

 

[richowebbo]

So you wouldn't pick Stuart Broad, who bowled so well in the UAE last time we toured there?

The only options for a third spinner are:

James Tredwell- steady and will always do a decent job

Simon Kerrigan- is left arm, with a good county record, but I think the management have seen a fragility in him, hence why he hasn't really had a chance in the last 18 months.

Adam Riley- replaced Tredwell in the Kent side last year, but is not playing well this season

Monty Panesar- can't see him ever playing for England again. Only just being trusted by his county to bowl

Liam Dawson- an all rounder, more suited to one day cricket, but is left arm and in good form with both bat and ball

Samit Patel- like Dawson, but older and fatter

Ollie Raynor- off spinner who puts in the odd decent performance for Middlesex but is far too inconsistent

Ravi Patel- might be the answer in a couple of years time. Is a left arm spinner who is getting better with every game. Still young

Danny Briggs- useless 4 day player. Very good t20 bowler

Scott Borthwick- I've noticed that he's started bowling a bit more and is taking wickets. Still has to be considered a batsman who bowls spin.

Out of all of those, right now the only guy I'd trust in a test match is Tredwell. That doesn't say a lot for the quality of our spin department. Therefore, I'd go for this team in the UAE

1. Ali
2. Cook
3. Bell
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. Rashid
9. Broad
10. Wood
11. Anderson

12. Hales
13. Taylor
14. Tredwell
15. Finn
16. Plunkett

Good work on the spin options. I thought a lot of Borthwick, but hasn't been bowling loads apparently. I must admit to being well off with my county knowledge this season due to England and the missus limiting my cricket viewing! I also like Kerrigan, but didn't he get smashed about by the Aussies? May have put the powers that be off. I thought Rashid bowled very well against NZ in the ODI's, but not giving him a chance in Tests, its difficult to know. He has been bowling well for Yorkshire though.

 

[IceAgeComing]

Borthwick never really bowled because Durham had a bunch of good seamers (Onions was one, can't remember the others at the top of my head at the moment) always took all the wickets in the early bit of the season when everything is a bit damp, and there are no Championship games in the middle of the summer when spin would do best thanks to the One Day cup.

If you are playing two spinners I think that you need two different spinners: either an offie and a leggie or an offie and a leftie. You absolutely have to take Rashid with you and see what he's like in the subcontinent, Moeen should play as a batsman and second spinner and you always have Root to bowl some part time stuff if needed. Monty's sadly over the hill now, Kerrigan would be useful but I'd like to see him get an Lions tour somewhere first, and Samit is the comedy option that everyone secretly wants. Mooen's place isn't guaranteed, he wasn't great in the West Indies and he might develop into a spinner that can take wickets in England for some reason, but not in places that actually turn.

Stokes is an batting all-rounder IMO, he can take wickets on his day but the West Indies tour makes me wonder how good he is with the ball outside England. He's certainly not your third seamer, and even in the subcontinent good quick bowling can take wickets, and I'd argue that its better to play a good third seamer than an average second spinner unless its the dustiest dustbowl in the world. Broad is your must, Jimmy struggles a bit outside England but can bowl great at times, and you have Wood, Finn and someone else to fill out your quicks in the squad.

Not going to post a mock team at this point because I'm tired and would have to look up players since I don't think that Taylor is in particularly great form at the moment.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

I think Monty split with his wife and then got a bit of a fondness for booze after he started getting a bit of depression. That's only from what's been reported so I don't really know.

I don't think you have got it mate! I meant Stokes PLUS 3 other quicks! I don't think Compton will get given another chance, although he should do as he is a good player. I think Lyth may be dropped and Alex Hales will come in. I would replace your 11 with Broad in place of ANOTHER SPINNER and have Wood above him in the batting order. I think our quicks will be good enough for Pakistan and Ali and Rashid will be enough, plus the odd over from Golden Arm Root!

I don't know much about the pitches in UAE though.

I think it's a fair enough point that if you don't have a half decent spinner you might as well pick a seamer. Someone that can really reverse it, Broad fits the bill. The reason I asked about Monty is because I saw him bowl in India and he's just the spinner you need in these conditions. He was not just turning it, he was turning it FAST. So, because of that, you tend to get more bounce and a lot of bat-pads and lbw's. I think it's a shame if all this has happened to him. He was perfect trajectory wise as well. He could toss it up as well as bowl the odd flat-fast spinning one. Must say that it was a pleasure to see a foreign spinner do that sort of stuff.

 

[richowebbo]

I think it's a fair enough point that if you don't have a half decent spinner you might as well pick a seamer. Someone that can really reverse it, Broad fits the bill. The reason I asked about Monty is because I saw him bowl in India and he's just the spinner you need in these conditions. He was not just turning it, he was turning it FAST. So, because of that, you tend to get more bounce and a lot of bat-pads and lbw's. I think it's a shame if all this has happened to him. He was perfect trajectory wise as well. He could toss it up as well as bowl the odd flat-fast spinning one. Must say that it was a pleasure to see a foreign spinner do that sort of stuff.

Monty was ace when he came along into the set-up, but his attitude changed due to whatever the circumstances were and now, I think he's 34, he's got no chance. Because English conditions suit seamers, and being a spinner isn't cool, we don't seem to get many good 'uns. I know as a spinner myself, that its hard to get a game unless you're an all rounder (which i most definitely am not!). If the ball isn't turning, you have to bowl so well to avoid getting bashed around the park.

 

[bigred]

Good work on the spin options. I thought a lot of Borthwick, but hasn't been bowling loads apparently. I must admit to being well off with my county knowledge this season due to England and the missus limiting my cricket viewing! I also like Kerrigan, but didn't he get smashed about by the Aussies? May have put the powers that be off. I thought Rashid bowled very well against NZ in the ODI's, but not giving him a chance in Tests, its difficult to know. He has been bowling well for Yorkshire though.

Kerrigan did get smashed two years ago at the Oval. Shane Watson took a particular liking to his bowling. But anyone can have a bad game, so we can forgive him for that.

I don't think it's just that that's putting the selectors off. Subsequent to that test match, he's been in a couple of squads and in Lions squads and he hasn't really been given a chance. He's done a lot of bowling at cones. I wonder whether they just don't think he's up to it mentally. He did come across as quite a shy and quiet guy in the one test that he did play.

There's no doubt though that he has the best record of all spinners in county cricket. He's got plenty of wickets @28 and that's having played mainly in div 1.

 

[richowebbo]

Kerrigan did get smashed two years ago at the Oval. Shane Watson took a particular liking to his bowling. But anyone can have a bad game, so we can forgive him for that.

I don't think it's just that that's putting the selectors off. Subsequent to that test match, he's been in a couple of squads and in Lions squads and he hasn't really been given a chance. He's done a lot of bowling at cones. I wonder whether they just don't think he's up to it mentally. He did come across as quite a shy and quiet guy in the one test that he did play.

There's no doubt though that he has the best record of all spinners in county cricket. He's got plenty of wickets @28 and that's having played mainly in div 1.

Bowling at cones sounds like Rashids test career so far!

But yeah he is pretty good at county level. I watched him play a couple of times and he looked good, but not stand out good. Eventually someone is going to have to be given a run, either that or we just don't tour the sub-continent!

 

[Aislabie]

If the UAE pitches are supposed to be slow and turny, I'd go with this XI:

Moeen Ali | (An adequate off-spinner, and good enough to get the shine off it. Awful player of offies.)
Alastair Cook | (Obviously.)
Ian Bell| (Did just enough to hold onto his place with few viable alternatives.)
Joe Root| (Obviously.)
Ben Stokes | (A legitimate swing bowling threat and attacking batsman of real quality.)
Liam Dawson | (Best left-arm spinner currently in England, also an increasingly good batsman.)
Chris Woakes | (Quicker than he looks, and has a fantastic yorker which he should bowl more.)
Tim Ambrose | (A surprise call, but he's genuinely become the best gloveman in England against spin.)
Adil Rashid | (A leg-spinner. England's answer to Yasir Shah. Kind of.)
Stuart Broad | (Obviously.)
James Anderson | (Obviously.)
-|-
Jonny Bairstow| (The outstanding Championship batsman; will be straight back into the side in South Africa.)
Jos Buttler| (Has looked all at sea in the Ashes, and may benefit from a little break.)
Steven Finn| (Periods of genuine rhythm; first cab off the rank if one of the others needs a rest.)
Mark Wood| (I really really want to rate his bowling.)

It seems like a pretty eccentric selection - and certainly wouldn't ever happen - but it's horses for courses and if I sat with absolute power it's the squad I'd pick. Should the pitch not be an absolute raging turner, any one of the four reserves can come in for a spinner and the balance of the side would still work.

Ambrose is a short-term selection, but I saw some of his keeping the other day and he looked superb. He's developed a real subcontinental style (harder hands, swipes off the bails in double-quick time), plus it gives Buttler a rest, and he's one of very few players playing all three formats.

Four seamers and three spinners seems excessive, but Broad and Anderson will need respite in 35-degree heat and 60% humidity, especially given that the workload is beginning to catch up with them.

 

[IceAgeComing]

Man Tim Ambrose, that's not a name that I've heard for a while.

Sussex once had both him and Matt Prior (or at least they were in the same team in ICC 2005...), that's quite a formidable keeping lineup!

I don't know whether Jimmy is a must play in the UAE: he doesn't really have much if it doesn't swing and I'd argue that on a day that isn't swinging at all you'd rather have Finn or Wood in. Broad is my number 1 in places like the UAE now...

 

[bigred]

Man Tim Ambrose, that's not a name that I've heard for a while.

Sussex once had both him and Matt Prior (or at least they were in the same team in ICC 2005...), that's quite a formidable keeping lineup!

I don't know whether Jimmy is a must play in the UAE: he doesn't really have much if it doesn't swing and I'd argue that on a day that isn't swinging at all you'd rather have Finn or Wood in. Broad is my number 1 in places like the UAE now...

Ambrose isn't bad but obviously won't go. If you're going to rest Buttler at any point, you do it on t20 or one day cricket.

Jimmy Anderson was superb last time England toured the UAE. He's not just a swing bowler who cleans up at Trent Bridge anymore. He's a lot more skilful and has developed into a brilliant bowler in Asian conditions.

I hope people really treasure Anderson while he's around. We haven't had anything like him for a while and we are unlikely to for a few years. He's an absolute genius.