Blast to the Past - 1st ODI Australia v England, celebrating 40 years

[War]

No one is comparing Gilly to Davies as though Davies is as good as him, people have just noted they play in a similar style (ie opening the batting and hitting from the off)

Secondly Davies scores his run in ODI cricket at a strike rate of 108 compared to Strauss' 80 so I have no idea what that part was in reference to.

The only thing similar to Gilly & Davies is that they are left. Davies has shown nothing in his internaitonal career that he can score @ the rate Gilly did.

Davies is more comparable to Nick Knight ATM.

Left-handed opener who are comparable to Gilchrist worldwide are Gayle, David Warner, Tamim Iqbal & Jesse Ryder.


Please show me in which of the 5 ODIs vs PAK & 1st ODI vs AUS, where Davies outscored Strauss?. I am not talking about their careers, when you compare them - listen to what i said. Since i really dont know what you have been watching of late, because quite clearly the Strauss/Davies opening partnership is two batsmen scoring generally at a similar rate.

(Interesting to note that in his 8 matches thus far Davies actually scores quicker than Gilly and Kieswetter).

At this stage thats all it is - interesting.

Kieswetter was dropped because he was averaging 26 for the duration of his ODI career and at the time was in awful form domestically and internationally. (Both Kieswetter and Lumb from the Twenty20 squad couldn't buy a run) To top this off Davies was in red hot form and was flaying attacks in the domestic competition all over the place at well over a run a ball.

I'd argue that it would have been more of a mistake to stick with Kieswetter in the worst form of his life than picking Davies in the form of his.

You make this sound like if Kiswetter has had a LONGGG ODI career. Before the ODI series vs ENG, he had just played 4 ODIs before BANG & SCOT combined. His ODI vs AUS was his 1st ODI home series coming up a very impressive T20 WC performance?. Does it mean nothing to you as i said that the fact that in that home ODI facing up to Tait & co & being exposed intially is no real shame, since few young batsmen in the world was going to score runs againts that quality pace attack in their 50th ODI series much less their 1st home ODI series??

Seconldy i didn't follow Kieswetter domestic ODI & T20 form much, if at all between the end of the AUS/BANG ODI in July & the start of the T20/ODIs vs Pakistan in September.

But his last two domestic pro-40 games heading into those PAK games where:

- Group A: Somerset v Surrey at Taunton, Aug 29, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 79 vs Surrey

- Group A: Worcestershire v Somerset at Worcester, Aug 30, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo 107 vs Worcestershire

So although i haven't checked other games before these two. Surely its dumb logic to drop the incumbent man after he had scores like these, since that clearly shows he went into those games in form & not as you said "the worst form of his life".

Plus in those 2 T20 vs PAK he didn't look bad either. Played a rash shot in the 1st T20I. But in the second game in that short runchase he was smashing Gul (who later wrecked ENG in the ODI series) & was looking set for a big innings before Davies stupidly ran him out.

I also he played a very good innings on T20 Finals days.

Finally are you seriously criticizing Kieswetter's T20 WC performances when you made this statement...."(Both Kieswetter and Lumb from the Twenty20 squad couldn't buy a run)?

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I have a suspicion that England will bring Prior in if Davies is dropped and play Prior in the middle order and open with Bell and Strauss. Given how Prior has done in the Test side, it's obvious he can bat better than his 25 average in ODIs suggests, maybe opening isn't for him, we don't have to have the keeper opening in ODIs.

The fact that Prior has nailed down the test spot could prove in his favour. Getting some murmurings from people I know that he's matured a lot, thus his improvement over the last year or so.

A keeper opening the batting is the only way to have a solid top 6 balance & 5 bowlers though. If as you suggest they open with Bell & play Prior in the middle, the top 7 looks sort of iffy:

Strauss
Bell
KP
Trott/Colly
Morgan
Prior

Already you have a problem of Morgan batting @ 5, which for safety reason he shouldn't be higher than # 6. Given behind him you have bits & pieces batsman like Yardy, Bresnan, Swann, Broad, which if in a match that top order in ran through early, our innings would be over in no time.

Only if Flintoff where stll around would a keeper in the middle-order be ok the try.

 

[Owzat]

It's the inconsistency which is frustrating, Sly. You can see he bowls some really good yorkers at times, but he is pretty naff with the new ball. He's in Broad's spot imo.

Definitely wouldn't have Bresnan opening the bowling, once Anderson returns that will be one opening bowler, but who to open with him?

I don't see them dropping Bresnan for the WC, but my three seamers is starting to feel like Shahzad, Anderson and Broad for the WC.

I think a key problem is England don't have an all-rounder, I think ideally they'd like a couple of players like Flintoff. They think bowlers who can bat and batsmen who can bowl = all-rounders, but they are just a poor man's all-rounder and not consistent nor strong enough with either suit. I always think of lower order batting not necessarily in terms of how good they are, but sometimes where they should bat. While players like Broad, Bresnan and Swann can all score useful runs, I wouldn't really want any of them batting #7 or above.

Yardy needs some performances, Tredwell could come in, he's a very solid batsman

Not sure they'd go back to Tredwell, if there was much chance surely he'd have played more than ONE Test and TWO ODIs. 2no in ODIs at an SR of 28.57, I know it is only one innings, but against Bangladesh albeit 229/8 when he came in chasing 261 to win.

Yardy is what England want in theory but in practice just a reasonably tight nothing bowler who will sometimes bag a few wickets, but quite often not. Considering he has a 1st class batting average of 38.80 I'm surprised he hasn't offered more with the bat that would make his inclusion much easier. Even in one dayers in county cricket he's only taken 102 wickets in 166 matches at a cost of 39 apiece, and struggled to reflect his 1st class batting average.

It's the long quest for spinners who can bat, we have Swann and now we want another. Rashid, Tredwell (less so), Patel and who else? Blackwell again? Dalrymple? Maybe Collingwood can be a hard to hit dobber, if we take the likes of Shazhad, Broad, Anderson and Finn/Bresnan (or both), won't we overload on quicks in a pretty small squad as it is - 15 is not enough in my view, a minimum squad should be 17 for a long tournament/tour, or even a squad of 20 to make it interesting.

Mind you, 6 ODI's to go, but the squad news on Weds will be interesting. 7-match series give us the chance to play Tredwell, but take 3 spinners to the WC? I think that's a good option, I don't think Finn makes the cut. Bring Broad in for Finn and I'd take this squad.

Not ideal preparation for picking a squad for the World Cup on the subcontinent. What I'd love is England to have a Hick, someone who is a very capable spinner but a cert for batting. (was in ODIs anyway, was dropped for ODIs way too early) If you have two frontline spinners and a part-timer of the ability of Hick then for me that is the way to go. But who? I don't believe KP is good enough, Shah maybe, maybe not. Patel might be one name screamed out, but I never rated him - good county player who will/does struggle at the highest level. Probably worth persisting with back then to see how it went, but England moved on and left him behind.

I fear Finn might prove a tad too expensive for ODIs, offering nothing with the bat I'd also not want to include him AND Anderson and could you leave Anderson out? I can't see them going with a lot of inexperience, while players might have a chance to debut before the World Cup, how much experience are they going to get - and chance to convince - before February?!?

POSSIBLE LINE-UP

Strauss (114 ODIs) : 3755 runs @ 35.76 (SR 80.10)
Davies (7 ODIs) : 244 runs @ 34.86 (SR 108.44)
Bell (84 ODIs) : 2645 runs @ 36.23 (SR 72.33)
Pietersen (105 ODIs) : 3410 runs @ 42.63 (SR 86.81) & 6 wkts @ 41.00
Trott (12 ODIs) : 489 runs @ 44.45 (SR 74.77)
Collingwood (189 ODIs) : 4978 runs @ 36.07 (SR 76.58) & 106 wkts @ 38.63

Yardy (20 ODIs) : 179 runs @ 16.27 & 14 wkts @ 47.71
Bresnan (34 ODIs) : 436 runs @ 25.65 & 38 wkts @ 39.11
Broad (73 ODIs) : 372 runs @ 12.83 & 124 wkts @ 25.69
Swann (44 ODIs) : 299 runs @ 12.46 & 60 wkts @ 24.63

Anderson (133 ODIs) : 159 runs @ 5.89 & 179 wkts @ 30.33

It's the bit that comes after the batsmen that worries me, no genuine all-rounder and it cries out for a couple of genuine all-rounders. The length of batting, down to 10, makes England (selectors) feel secure, but in truth they need batsmen who can bash 30s and 40s not 10s and 20s.

At the top of the order some might feel Trott and Bell don't score quickly enough, but you do need a solid base and this belief that batsmen need to score at a run a ball must be a disease that comes with T20. A lot of the middle order come in when the innings slows down somewhat, maybe even have to consolidate because of early wicket losses. It's no coincidence that the two lowest averages of the top six also have two of the highest SRs. Collingwood offers his bowling and fielding to back up his batting, the reason I would include him.

 

[Sureshot]

My point being at the moment the top 6 consist of 5 batsman and the keeper. Does the keeper have to open when Bell is a very solid opening bat in OD? Just a case of re-jigging those top 6, if Prior comes back.

I agree, I think the side can look a bit iffy if we lose early wickets. But without bringing an all-rounder, or using Colly as a 5th bowler and someone like Bopara to come in for one of the bits and pieces, as he can get through some overs and is a good batsman. I will still maintain that we haven't seen the best of Yardy with the bat, he's no power-hitter, but he can maintain a decent strike rate, even if he hasn't shown it. 2 years down the line I can see Rashid being the 2nd spinner and the #7 slot being filled by him.

Owzat - Good post, bang on the nail. We're just lacking a bit of an all-rounder, which really has come about due to the demise of Colly. I can't see England leaving out Morgan, but as said elsewhere, Trott is just too good a player to leave out imo. But who misses out? Colly? He's the only batsman who will bowl good overs, but his batting has to be priority. Trott isn't that bad with the ball. Over 200 overs in domestic OD, averaging 25 with 50 odd wickets.

Patel is an interesting shout. His fitness issue has held back his career. Dalrymple won't play for England again, Shah I also think has gone completely off the radar. What other batsman out there offer some bowling?

I'll shout out for Chris Nash of Sussex (ooh surprise, but hear me out). He's in really good form over the last couple of years, scores very quickly, solid part-time spinner and an excellent fielder. He normally opens but could come in down the order if need be.

Just looked over last years stats and there are no batsman who spin it sticking out. Seen James Taylor bowl a few leggies, he is the future of England middle order, but that's not much use for now.

Totally agree on Finn, don't see him as a OD bowler, yet. To open with Anderson, I'd use Shahzad. Think he's more likely to get a bit of movement than Broad. They are my 3 seamers for WC XI though.

 

[Themer]

Davies has shown nothing in his internaitonal career that he can score @ the rate Gilly did.

He is scoring quicker than Gilly did as things stand. That to me suggests he might be able to score quicker than Gilly.

Additionally he's been scoring his runs in domestic cricket at well over 100 which once again suggests he can score at said rates.

Please show me in which of the 5 ODIs vs PAK & 1st ODI vs AUS, where Davies outscored Strauss?. I am not talking about their careers, when you compare them - listen to what i said. Since i really dont know what you have been watching of late, because quite clearly the Strauss/Davies opening partnership is two batsmen scoring generally at a similar rate.

Actually you suggested that Davies was scoring slowly because he wasn't making Strauss' batting look pedestrian whereas when you look at the games in question Strauss was scoring his run very quickly himself. Note Davies scored his runs notably quicker when he got, in nearing Twenty20 strike rates.

1st ODI vs Pakistan
Strauss 41 runs at 91
Davies 87 at 129

2nd ODI
Strauss 126 at 94
Davies 26 at 123

3rd ODI
Strauss 57 at 103
Davies 18 at 100

4rd ODI
Strauss 68 at 94
Davies 49 at 80

5th ODI
Strauss 25 at 71
Davies 17 at 89

To date in his ODI career he doesn't even score faster than Strauss when he gets going & i would think a potential Gilly clone is suppose to make Strauss look pedestrian.

Gilly scored his ODI runs at 96 a rate that Davies has scored quicker than in three of the matches in questions and again I'll state when people were comparing the two they were only doing to suggest they do a similar role at the top of the order score as fast as possible and keep. Something which Davies undoubtedly has done thus far.

You make this sound like if Kiswetter has had a LONGGG ODI career. Before the ODI series vs ENG, he had just played 4 ODIs before BANG & SCOT combined. His ODI vs AUS was his 1st ODI home series coming up a very impressive T20 WC performance?. Does it mean nothing to you as i said that the fact that in that home ODI facing up to Tait & co & being exposed intially is no real shame, since few young batsmen in the world was going to score runs againts that quality pace attack in their 50th ODI series much less their 1st home ODI series??

England didn't just drop him after one poor series against Australia. They stuck with him for the Bangladesh ODI series as well where he proceeded to look completely out of form scoring just 52 runs averaging 17 and scoring his runs at 88. You've said he should have been stuck with for a few more ODIs instead of being dumped after the series versus Australia before moving onto Davies if he wasn't performing which they clearly did do.

Finally are you seriously criticizing Kieswetter's T20 WC performances when you made this statement...."(Both Kieswetter and Lumb from the Twenty20 squad couldn't buy a run)?

No, I was merely mentioning Kieswetter and Lumb because there was a few newspaper reports at the time saying that the two playing in the Twenty20 had a negative effect on them when they returned.

On the Kieswetter form thing he was most definitely well out of form. Craig Kieswetter's slump spreads as Somerset struggle against Kent - Telegraph Craig Kieswetter needs a strong dose of the county cure - Telegraph

I think that its pretty obvious that Kieswetter needed to be dropped and thats before we factor in that Davies was averaging 80 something at the time with his runs coming at 120. And yes thats in One Day cricket not Twenty20.

 

[MUFC1987]

Does the keeper have to open when Bell is a very solid opening bat in OD?

When did this happen? He's certainly not in ODIs and doesn't even open in One day cricket domestically, if that's what you meant. The guy gets some runs against some first class bowlers on their day off and suddenly his whole career is re-written.

 

[Sureshot]

Wow, that's an impressive denial of the improvement he's made.

Seems I was confusing him opening for Warks with Trott.

 

[King Pietersen]

Dropping Kieswetter was absolutely the right thing to do. He looked awful in that ODi series against the Australian's. Couldn't handle the pace, wasn't scoring quickly and his keeping isn't good enough to keep him in the side. Davies has come in and done an excellent job. He's done what he's been asked to do, and that's score quickly and keep tidily. Averaging 34 with a strike rate of 108 is impressive, and yet for some reason he's already been ditched. I'm sure after the World Cup, when Prior ultimately fails the selectors will realise their mistake and bring Davies back. Hell, Davies is good enough to get into this side as a batsman alone, let alone as a keeper. Easily our best option as far as OD keepers go.

 

[MUFC1987]

Wow, that's an impressive denial of the improvement he's made.

Seems I was confusing him opening for Warks with Trott.

Improvement he's made? I can only imagine you're talking about Tests, because he sure as hell hasn't shown that in ODIs. They're different forms of the game. If Lumb had averaged 50 in the T20 WC last year, would he have been picked for the Test team? Of course not. Yet Bell gets some Test runs and suddenly that makes him a better ODI player? I don't get that. Perhaps it's just me.

 

[War]

Improvement he's made? I can only imagine you're talking about Tests, because he sure as hell hasn't shown that in ODIs. They're different forms of the game. If Lumb had averaged 50 in the T20 WC last year, would he have been picked for the Test team? Of course not. Yet Bell gets some Test runs and suddenly that makes him a better ODI player? I don't get that. Perhaps it's just me.

No you are absolutely right sir. ENG ODI selectors have a history of dumb ODI selections since the 1992 world cup & although i want to give Flower/selectors the benefit of the doubt given the good year we have had in limited overs cricket. The legacy of misguided ODI selections have continued clearly with Prior's WC selection.

Also TBF to Bell, although i was a bit skeptical about his ODI recall last summer. I think he has brought a new aggressive streak to his batting which could end up in him having the same ODI career transformation that Strauss has had since 2009.

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Also ha no reason to respond the Themer & KP (Steve Davies fanboy for life ) highly inaccurate synopsis of why Kieswetter was dropped. Since now Davies has been dropped under equally ridiculous circumstances.

So as it stands both of them depending on the form of Prior have to earn back their ODI place based on domestic form in the coming years. The battle is on!!

 

[Themer]

Also ha no reason to respond the Themer & KP (Steve Davies fanboy for life ) highly inaccurate synopsis of why Kieswetter was dropped.

I'm extremely interested as to why I've given a "highly inaccurate synopsis" of why Kieswetter was dropped. Other than you simply saying "I'm right you're wrong"

Especially as there's multiple newspaper reports which back me up and the stats back me up.

 

[King Pietersen]

Yeah, other than the fact Kieswetter got 12 games at the top of the order, performed in 2, against Bangladesh and Scotland and against anything that resembled good bowling looked at all sea. His technique could not hold up to quality pace, he didn't actually score that quickly with his biggest issue being his lack of ability when it came to rotating the strike. Davies got fewer games, but looked much more convincing, actually managed to score quickly and played perfect foil to Strauss. He's also better with the gloves and has probably been the best OD batsman in England over the past couple of seasons. I like Kieswetter, and supported him at the time, but his dropping was the correct decision, he wasn't scoring runs and looked awful. Dropping Davies is a ludicrous decision. He didn't look in great form in that first ODi, but that's hardly surprising, he's barely played a game for months. If given a chance for the entirety of the series I'm confident he'd have looked much better, and made some big runs. Amazed they only gave the bloke a run of 6 games, given his ability, and the depth of runs he's made domestically. Makes no sense at all.

 

[War]

With all due respect, I can tear your argument & KPs apart in 5 mins. But its useless now given Davies is dropped, so a whole new dynamics in those players career has developed during our debate which makes arguing on the merits useless now.

As i said both players now depending on how Prior performs with the bat start from scratch or hell may never even play ODIs for ENG again if Prior cements his place.

 

[Themer]

With all due respect, I can tear your argument & KPs apart in 5 mins. But its useless now given Davies is dropped, so a whole new dynamics in those players career has developed during our debate which makes arguing on the merits useless now.

Go on then. Tear away until you do this is nothing but you posturing as you're argument has been shown to be completely and utterly wrong. Not even close to being right.

Another stat for you here Kieswetter's combined stats from the Twenty20 final to his dropping were 504 runs in 24 visits. (Including Twenty20, OD(I) and First Class) Tear into that,.

 

[King Pietersen]

They're young, they'll definitely play for England again. Davies has been blasting county attacks for 2 years, when Prior inevitably fails in OD cricket again it should be Davies that comes in. Until Kieswetter proves he's good enough to play quality pace, and is capable of actually rotating the strike and not boundary hunting he should remain outside the England side. Davies could get into this England side on batting alone, and on merit could probably be opening alongside Strauss without the gloves, the selectors should have shown more faith in him.

 

[War]

They're young, they'll definitely play for England again. Davies has been blasting county attacks for 2 years, when Prior inevitably fails in OD cricket again it should be Davies that comes in. Until Kieswetter proves he's good enough to play quality pace, and is capable of actually rotating the strike and not boundary hunting he should remain outside the England side. Davies could get into this England side on batting alone, and on merit could probably be opening alongside Strauss without the gloves, the selectors should have shown more faith in him.

This is where i will caution you. Although deep down i suspect i will fail again also, if Flowers faith in him does pay up, he can make that ODI opening spot his own for another 5 years easily. Which would render both Davies & Kieswetter to being back-ups for a long time.

Plus you haven't even considered that Joss Butler could also force his way into the ODI/T20 calculation with those two in the coming years.

What if a quality all-rounder (instead of bits a pieces players like Wright, Yardy) capable of doing the Flintoff role appears who can bat @ # 7?. I dont see any on the county circuit, but maybe it could be Woakes? Having such a player could render the idea of a keeper having to open with a keeper to balance the ODI side.

What if Alex Hales steps & becomes the ODI opener that his early talent suggests?

What if Cook now suddenly has the kind of ODI transformation that Strauss has had?

Too much things could happen in the next few years which could make Davies or Kieswetter path back into the limited overs set-up very tricky IMO. So i'll take the wait & see approach ATS.