January 12th - 1st T20i England vs Australia @ Adelaide

[War]

In FC maybe, but definitely not in OD and T20 domestically. He had an eco rate of about 5.5 in T20 last year.

He's not played anything like as well as he can with the bat for England, bar a few ocassions. His T20 record with the bat isn't that bad. He has got out in some pretty sloppy fashion though for England.

McLovin - Sky commentators said there was a slight delay for some Channel Nine reasons iirc.

Or maybe what we have seen of him in international cricket represents his true ability with the bat?.

----------

Well I was talking more about his fitness, he did only play 3 ODIs last year, and sure hes done great in twenty20s but I can't see how he is going to get through all these 50 over games against England and then the world cup without injury.

The only reason Tait only played those 3 ODIs last year vs ENG. Was if you recall Tait only returned to cricket early 2010 during the T20s @ home last season vs WI & PAK & the selectors where intially just easing him back into cricket as a T20 specialist.

Hell they even took Josh Hazlewood to ENG for the ODIs. Its after ENG where killing a injury hit AUS early in that ODIs, the selectors pulled Tait from his country stint & he played those ODIs.

Then later in the year he got an injury playing in the Champions league.

Of course his fitness will always be a worry. But I dont see why he cant last the world cup. He lasted the 2007 WC quite fine in similar blazing hot conditions on flat pitches.

 

[Sureshot]

Or maybe what we have seen of him in international cricket represents his true ability with the bat?.

Not at all. He's no Morgan/KP/Bell, but he could do a job at 7 in rebuilding innings and finishing them off, not particularly one for doing 12 an over trying to win, as in tonight.

 

[War]

Not at all. He's no Morgan/KP/Bell, but he could do a job at 7 in rebuilding innings and finishing them off, not particularly one for doing 12 an over trying to win, as in tonight.

Im not sure he has the ability to be any sort of finisher. He doesn't have the power game to clear the boundaries in the late overs. Which is why in the T20 WC last year Swann & Bresnan batted ahead of him in those situations

The best we can expect from him to keep the scoreboard ticking over consistently by running 1s & 2s hard & maybe the odd boundary. But i would expect good bowlers to easily tie him down in general however.

His batting is very much hit & miss @ international level to be frank. His solid bowling is what is keeping him in the side. Once/if that goes, his position will be scrutinized again.

----------

Broad is only 24. You can't expect a great player to follow another. It's the England keeper dilemma, the Australian Spinner dilemma. You had an icon, a legend, a true great playing and then when they retire you expect the next person to live right up into those expectations and even surpass them. England had it after Stewart stepped down and went round keepers like Tiger Woods cheated on his wife. Warne retired and they had McGill (sp?) for a while (possibly the one of the most unlucky players ever) and now they are doing the same thing, they expect great things from their new spinners and it simply won't happen as they just don't have the aura or the talent. These guys are once in a generation cricketers, you can't expect everyone who slots into those positions to achieve the same feats.

Yes im not expecting Broad to do replace Flintoff off. I was just simply saying that Broad doesn't have the game to be the kind of top 6/7 all-rounder that Flintoff was at his peak for England.

The best IMO his batting will reach of what Akram/Hadlee was which is solid # 8 test batsmen who will give consistent 20s-30s.

Isn't he capitano of Sussex and thus puts him up there himself?

Maybe. The team management down may also have an input in that.

Lest not forget either, Swann opens the batting for Notts in OD cricket a lot of the time, he wasn't picked to open the batting for England was he? England have picked him for his ability with the ball not the bat or he wouldn't be batting at 7/8.

Swann opening for Notts in OD cricket a few times is simply an example of how crappy division 2 bowling is. Even chaminda Vaas was opening for some county last seaosn in DIV 2 somewhere ha.

England would never contemplate opening with Swann in limited overs cricket Neither would have SRI when Vaas was @ his peak.

Yardy batting is not replicating his domestic performances on the international stage. His bowling is what is keeping him in the side & long may it continue until someone else steps up, who could very well & be Chris Woakes.

I agree, I don't rate him either but what I'm trying to show is that you're taking out a bits and pieces player, only to fill the gap with another one when that's what you were complaining about in the first place?

Ye & im saying try another bits and pieces player like Trego & see if he can bring some more consistently to the role, since Wright has had enough chances.

Putting 'Hollioake bros' in is a bit harsh considering Ben never really got to showcase his talent for England after his horrible accident. (RIP).

Dont want to speak to ill of the dead. But if my memory is right Ben played like 20-25 ODIs between 97-2001, which for me was a good look at him @ international level & i never rated him.

In all honesty, I don't think Wright would be in the side if Broad wasn't injured and England were at full strength.

Yea. Best ENG ODI side:

Strauss
Davies/CK
Bell
KP
Colly
Morgan
Yardy/Trego (depending on conditions)
Bresnan
Swann
Broad
Anderson

Woakes batting ability in this early days which IMO looks good enough to bat him ahead of Bresnan/Swann/Broad could potentially have him batting @ 7 i reckon. But i dont want to jinx the lad, so we shall see how he progresses.

 

[Sureshot]

War, not sure how Trego can be a part of the best England ODI side as he's never played for England. Not saying he doesn't deserve a shot, he does, but he's an unknown at this level.

I think the situation exerts itself a bit more with no Broad in the side, he's a key part of the ODI side.

 

[Themer]

I was just simply saying that Broad doesn't have the game to be the kind of top 6/7 all-rounder that Flintoff was at his peak for England.

Bit of a big shout there considering how much better Broad has performed in comparison to Flintoff performed at similar positions in their Test careers.

If you look Flintoff after the same number of innings as Broad (which is 46) he averages 25 in comparison to Broad's average of 27. I'd also say that Broad has a much superior technique in comparison to Flintoff so I wouldn't be surprised if Broad can develop into a man who can average 30 plus.

Taking this further just for mere comparison if we look at the bowling, Broad averages 34 after 60 innings with 3 five fors while Flintoff averaged 40 with only one five for.

I really do think that Broad has the potential to grow into a player of Flintoff's ilk, certainly has everything going for him on the bowling front going forward (pace, height, accuracy) and has shown glimpses that he can reverse it albeit too brief. While on he batting front as I've mentioned he does have a much better technique (for Tests at least probably won' be able to compete with Flintoff's slogging in shorter formats although he I highly doubt he'll end his ODI career with an average of 12). Time will tell but I think he's got the potential.

 

[Sureshot]

Took 6 years for Flintoff to peak from his debut. Broad made his ODI debut 4 1/2 years ago, his test debut just 3 years ago. Those were some long years for Flintoff to reach his peak, Broad is certainly doing better in the early years stakes.

I think Broad has a lot of talent and has already made great steps since 2006-2008. He's still only 24.

 

[War]

You really cant compare Broad & Flintoff stats wise or how they fared stats wise at a similar age.

Since the obvious difference between the two is that Flintoff since is junior age cricket days & county cricker, was always an all-rounder who should tremendous hitting ability who was compared to Botham. So although it took a while, he eventually became test standard & world-class at the role he always played.

Broad however coming up through age group cricket was always a bowler, who could bat a bit. So if Broad where to reach Flintoff level, it would take an unbelievable career transformation, which i certainly dont see happening.

As i said the best IMO we can expect Broad batting to reach is of a Hadlee/Akram level. I dont see where you see Broad has a better batting technique that Flintoff also themer.

Plus id argue Flintoff thanks to injuries we never the true zenith of Flintoff peak in test. We just saw glimpses of it between Bridgetown 2004 - Mumbai 2006.

----------

War, not sure how Trego can be a part of the best England ODI side as he's never played for England. Not saying he doesn't deserve a shot, he does, but he's an unknown at this level.

I think the situation exerts itself a bit more with no Broad in the side, he's a key part of the ODI side.

My argument is that he should be given a shot & its a mistake by the selectors that he hasn't replaced Wright already.

Both Trego & Broad can be in the best ENG ODI XI also.

 

[Themer]

Broad however coming up through age group cricket was always a bowler

He was an opening batsmen for nearly all his junior cricket.

 

[War]

He was an opening batsmen for nearly all his junior cricket.

Forgot to mention that part. IIRC correctly he took up bowling around age 17/18 & he made his country debut for Leicestershire in 2005 on the back of his bowling. To date throughout his country & international career he has never shown the same kind of batting form that Flintoff showed during his early county days with the bat.

So at this stage expecting him to reach the levels Flintoff reached with the bat in tests is very much wishful thinking on your part.

 

[Themer]

Its not wishful thinking to say I think he can improve his batting average by 5 runs or so, with training a 24 year old bowler with a decent technique should most definitely be aiming to improve by something along those lines.

Look at how much Vettori has improved his batting as an example of what with hard practice can be done.

 

[Sureshot]

Broad may not be able to have the same aggressive impact Flintoff had, but I see no reason why Broad cannot average 30 and score 5 test hundreds.