DBC14 Modification Discussion

[Alberts]

What killed the series was that they stopped making them...

Bit of a stream of conscious coming, but...

Patches, in those days, cost huge amounts of money on console and were only ever generally done if something incredibly serious was wrong with the game. Like category 1 bugs only (basically things that make it unshippable: repeatable hangs, progression issues). The only bugs in AC09 by industry standards (but not here) were category 3 at best: *maybe* the run-out issues were nudging a category 2. Even without the turmoil at the developer I doubt a console patch would have been sanctioned (or even remotely arguable). By IC10 launch I had moved on, but I suspect a similar story applies - the only serious issue was apparently the online issue, but knowing how many online players there were on AC09 I suspect that there was not enough evidence for them to justify fixing it, especially as that was around the time that Codemasters pulled out of all games other than racing: there was no long-term benefit for a large short-term cost.
It was such a shame. Like I said before, you want a revolution/evolution/revolution/evolution model: every 2 years you get a MAJOR update, and an interim version focussing on polish and improving what is there. I feel that 2011 would have been very, very good and the one I really wanted to make.

As developers we desperately wanted to do it: we spent many late nights in the office working after-hours on those PC patches, including live-patching into PC members computers when they had issues to try and fix them, but that was because there were a few dedicated people basically doing it because they wanted to, rather than employed to.


For me, the saturation point for sales of a cricket game is probably about 300k. Using AC09 as the example (we had ideal market conditions; good point in the hardware cycle, huge marketing, ideal license, positive reviews, releasing simultaneously to the Ashes series (which was a very good one!) etc etc) I think that's about as good as it gets.
Maybe there's an updraft in PC sales now Steam is more established, but I don't think massive. And the above isn't including the Wii version (which doubled that number) because I think we just hit the Wii at exactly the right time and hit a completely different, casual audience: that would be an incredibly difficult thing to repeat.

The PC version of IC10 was not "held back" for any other reason other than AC09 did not sell enough copies on PC to justify even printing the disks. It was SHOCKINGLY low.

The problem with the PC release of Ashes Cricket 2009 was probably that you already sold versions of the game to those who really wanted it, and they couldn't justify buying another. I actually dug out my version of AC09 today just to see if I could find it.

You say you just about hit saturation in the market, are you implying that you don't think that cricket games are economically viable if IC11 wasn't on the cards? Or do you mean that other issues prevented it?

Again, from my own experience, the people I know who bought AC09, but not IC10, gave the reason that they didn't think it was justified when the first wasn't fixed. Things might have been different back then, but my memory of events has most games I know getting patched at least 1-2 times per iteration, although it must have been expensive for a smaller company.

In terms of market saturation, I just don't see how that could be expected from AC09. Niche markets have been booming in recent years. Something like FM 2014 has sold something of the order of 800,000 units and is now considered quite a major series. Europa Universalis 4 has sold over 300,000, with the impressive Crusader Kings supposedly now being a central series for Paradox now on the bad of the modding community spreading word about it.

With the potential size of market available there really shouldn't be a reason that given support, community engagement and robust after market support and balance that a cricket game series can't build a reputation and make itself a nice stable market share.

It will be interesting to see how it goes for Big Ant in the future, but the key for them needs to remain community engagement. In doing so they will be able to build a name, reputation and a solid fan base, exactly like so many other successful games that some would class as niche markets.

 

[Chief]

The problem with the PC release of Ashes Cricket 2009 was probably that you already sold versions of the game to those who really wanted it, and they couldn't justify buying another. I actually dug out my version of AC09 today just to see if I could find it.

You say you just about hit saturation in the market, are you implying that you don't think that cricket games are economically viable if IC11 wasn't on the cards? Or do you mean that other issues prevented it?

Again, from my own experience, the people I know who bought AC09, but not IC10, gave the reason that they didn't think it was justified when the first wasn't fixed. Things might have been different back then, but my memory of events has most games I know getting patched at least 1-2 times per iteration, although it must have been expensive for a smaller company.

In terms of market saturation, I just don't see how that could be expected from AC09. Niche markets have been booming in recent years. Something like FM 2014 has sold something of the order of 800,000 units and is now considered quite a major series. Europa Universalis 4 has sold over 300,000, with the impressive Crusader Kings supposedly now being a central series for Paradox now on the bad of the modding community spreading word about it.

With the potential size of market available there really shouldn't be a reason that given support, community engagement and robust after market support and balance that a cricket game series can't build a reputation and make itself a nice stable market share.

It will be interesting to see how it goes for Big Ant in the future, but the key for them needs to remain community engagement. In doing so they will be able to build a name, reputation and a solid fan base, exactly like so many other successful games that some would class as niche markets.

My point was that a 10% drop in sales from AC09 to IC10 was WAY below what was reasonably expected. Especially given the drop from BLIC05 to BLIC07. It performed way beyond expectation when AC09 sold way more than we could have possibly hoped.

Football Manager may be a niche, but it's a niche comfortably 3x bigger than for a cricket game.

Support would have been great, but I don't think it cost us any sales because we didn't do it (or such small numbers of sales as to be irrelevant).

Given that, in broad terms, you make about ?8 back from each sale (and in those days a patch cost you, conservatively, something like ?25k) and given a high goal of 300k sales... And that a game would cost you over ?1m at the very LOW end of console development...

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The problem with the PC release of Ashes Cricket 2009 was probably that you already sold versions of the game to those who really wanted it, and they couldn't justify buying another.

I don't get this: AC09 was a new PC Cricket game after several years of none, and yet the sales were incredibly small.

 

[cricfan11]

This is a DBC Mods "Screenshots" thread, right?

 

[varunvgiri]

My point was that a 10% drop in sales from AC09 to IC10 was WAY below what was reasonably expected. Especially given the drop from BLIC05 to BLIC07. It performed way beyond expectation when AC09 sold way more than we could have possibly hoped.

Well, you can increase your sales by making the pie bigger. As customer satisfaction with cricket games increases, the number of people buying cricket games increases. So, even if the percentage of people buying the new version drops, the number of unit sales keeps going up.

In an S-curve, I don't think cricket games ever got beyond the initial upward slope mainly because of lack of improvement. None of the games you mentioned had any increased consumer satisfaction to make the pie bigger.

Big Ant's strategy is at making the market larger. They have also created entry barriers by fundamentally changing gamer's expectation of how the game plays. It may not succeed, but I wouldn't bet against it.

 

[barmyarmy]

Is it? In some ways they've made the market smaller by making the game less accessible to casual fans.

 

[varunvgiri]

Is it? In some ways they've made the market smaller by making the game less accessible to casual fans.

What's the potential size of the core cricket gaming market? And what converts a fan from casual to core? The core market could in itself be exponentially bigger that what it is today. What's the customer life time value of the core gamer v/s casual gamer? Maybe it's far more profitable over a period of many years and many editions to have a loyal core customer compared to a one time casual customer. It's hard to say without substantial market research but many industries successfully follow this strategy very successfully.

 

[Alberts]

Is it? In some ways they've made the market smaller by making the game less accessible to casual fans.

I don't see how really. On it's easiest difficultly it is pretty much pick up and play, and people aren't going to know much about it's level until they've tried it. The main motivation many seem to have for buying cricket games are that it's a cricket game, the key is building a reputation and an image around it, and the key to that will always be worth of mouth and continued support, which they are doing.

We'll have to see in the long term, but I seriously doubt they've made the market actually smaller.

 

[ramesh1234]

Matt you should start the thread named "reasons of ac09,ic10 failure" before this thread get lot worse

 

[MattW]

I've just split the thread - this one contains posts about the potential for console modding, discussion of what can/should be moddable, and whether modding is a good idea - including discussion of previous games.

The DBC14 Mod Screenshots thread is again back waiting for your posts of new modifications made. I'll try to take in game screenshots if you post the dds file.

 

[AniketMehta]

My point was that a 10% drop in sales from AC09 to IC10 was WAY below what was reasonably expected. Especially given the drop from BLIC05 to BLIC07. It performed way beyond expectation when AC09 sold way more than we could have possibly hoped.

Football Manager may be a niche, but it's a niche comfortably 3x bigger than for a cricket game.

Support would have been great, but I don't think it cost us any sales because we didn't do it (or such small numbers of sales as to be irrelevant).

Given that, in broad terms, you make about ?8 back from each sale (and in those days a patch cost you, conservatively, something like ?25k) and given a high goal of 300k sales... And that a game would cost you over ?1m at the very LOW end of console development...

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I don't get this: AC09 was a new PC Cricket game after several years of none, and yet the sales were incredibly small.

After reading all these posts (If I was Bill Gates I would give 1 Billion $ to Big Ant for creating The Game Of The Decade.!)
Just by readingabout the features of the game (Havent got a chance to play it yet :-() I can safely say that no game AC 09/11 Blic 05/07 IC10 Can come even close to this game Seriously

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Plz God give Big Ant unlimited supply of money so that they can make even better games in future.. ;-) :-P

I strongly think DBC 16-17 Will surely overtake Fifa 17 in terms of sales !!

 

[Chief]

AGAIN: I see no problems supporting the small, core mod community that exists on PC.

In fact, I would do DBC2 on early access on Steam first, run a beta wherein people can also be still adding content (assuming that Cricket Academy players/teams/all data etc can carry over into new versions). I'd use that community to test out and feedback on the game, using that fact that PC can be patched easily, and then release a console version fully tested and balanced.

I'd even think about doing it on a subscription basis: If I said that ?50 now buys you PC versions forever, I'll bet it results in more sales than a PC version normally would. I get your money up front, I get your help in testing and balancing, and you get constant updates and a game constantly evolving.
Everyone wins.

 

[Biggs]

Modding is pretty much the sign of a beloved game by most developers, especially since it's basically become a tradition for Cricket titles to become frankensteins monster-modded things. It's just nice that @Ross and the BigAnt guys are open to allowing us to do it with their blessing and support, where appropriate.

...also means the wait for DBCII: The Rise of Alan Border is less painful.

 

[Dutch]

...also means the wait for DBCII: The Rise of Alan Border is less painful.

Rumours have it that Joe Root will be the golden boy on the cover of the next version....

DBCII: Rooted! (Ee bah gum, 'e look 'bout three years old but 'e can 'alf 'old a stick in 'is 'and, the lad!)

 

[Chief]

Rumours have it that Joe Root will be the golden boy on the cover of the next version....

DBCII: Rooted! (Ee bah gum, 'e look 'bout three years old but 'e can 'alf 'old a stick in 'is 'and, the lad!)

I wanted Ajmal Shahzad on the front cover of IC10 hitting a ball, with a big Batman-style cartoon bubble "SHAHZAD!!!"

The brand people were unmoved.

 

[Biggs]

ALL of you should've done the honorable thing and put Nic Cage on the cover, you had your chance.