England National football team thread

[Dr. Pepper]

Yeah, that's why.

 

[War]

Netherlands, really? You think England are now WC Finalists in the space of 18 months after being knocked out in the first knockout stage of the WC?

No, I mean if all ENG players a fit and available come next summer on paper they are not that far of the dutch IMO. Our defence is certainly stronger that theirs - while they have. better attacking options.

However i can understand if people wish to put the Dutch ahead of ENG along with Spain and Germany.

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Well he obviously hasn't considering how much space England leave when him, Barry, Lampard play. They like to get forward and they don't have the understanding to know which player gets forward at what time and they continually get caught out and leave spaces in midfield to exploit.

As i said, look back at the 2-0 win in Wales and 3-0 win in Bulgaria during the qualifying campaign and Parker didn't do that - especially when Wilshire was around and the formation was 4-3-3, instead of 4-2-1-3. Its just in the Montenegro game as you highlighted, he got forward too much.

But admittedly Parker instinctively is not pure defensive mid-fielder. He is jack-of-all trades mid-fielder similar to Joey Barton, who can go forward and score goals and tackles well enough for a coach to deploy him in a defensive role.

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If Hargreaves can get some form and fitness going, I would pick him for England; he was brilliant against Portugal in 2006. But that's a big if - although he has made a good start for the Joke club.

Once Hargreaves plays enough games for City this season without breaking down Capello will pick him without hesitation - that much is clear. We all remember how desperately close was to taking him to the world-cup last year, when their was rumours around that he could have been fit to play in the back end of United's season.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

I just read what Ray Wilkins said about the next England boss: Glen Hoddle. Why not? Apart from the healer rubbish, he did an amazing job last time round. He's just become my new pick, because I definitely want an English boss and I don't think 'Arry's the right man. What have we got to lose by giving Hoddle another go?

Thoughts?

 

[War]

Yeah, that's why.

Lee_1981 is right though Pepper. You just have to look at the 2009 and 2011 Champions league finals, when Carrick looked out of place against the high quality Barca mid-field. Admittedly at times last season Carrick looked good against top premiership opponents - but its those Barca games that stick out like a sore thumb on his CV.

Its probably why this season Ferguson has promoted Cleverley ahead of him for big games along with the likes Anderson, Fletcher.

You cant expect Capello or any coach to pick him or anyone if a coach like Ferguson is not playing you and at this stage I wouldn't be that surprised if Carrick isn't sold next season by SAF.

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I just read what Ray Wilkins said about the next England boss: Glen Hoddle. Why not? Apart from the healer rubbish, he did an amazing job last time round. He's just become my new pick, because I definitely want an English boss and I don't think 'Arry's the right man. What have we got to lose by giving Hoddle another go?

Thoughts?

Yea i would be down with Hoddle as well - he clearly is one of brightest English coaches we have. Hell I even think Wilkins could put his hand up to be coach, he has allot experience being assistant Manager over the last decade during a successful decade for Chelsea and everything i hear him speak on TV - he clearly knows his football.

 

[barmyarmy]

This "we must have an English manager" stuff is all crap. If there were enough good English managers around they'd be winning domestic and European trophies.
I agree that there's a case for having a manager who speaks English but I'd far sooner the England team actually had a chance of winning something than employed another Steve McLaren simply because they're English.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Lee_1981 is right though Pepper. You just have to look at the 2009 and 2011 Champions league finals, when Carrick looked out of place against the high quality Barca mid-field. Admittedly at times last season Carrick looked good against top premiership opponents - but its those Barca games that stick out like a sore thumb on his CV.

Its probably why this season Ferguson has promoted Cleverley ahead of him for big games along with the likes Anderson, Fletcher.

You cant expect Capello or any coach to pick him or anyone if a coach like Ferguson is not playing you and at this stage I wouldn't be that surprised if Carrick isn't sold next season by SAF.

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Yea i would be down with Hoddle as well - he clearly is one of brightest English coaches we have. Hell I even think Wilkins could put his hand up to be coach, he has allot experience being assistant Manager over the last decade during a successful decade for Chelsea and everything i hear him speak on TV - he clearly knows his football.

How can you judge him on his games against Barcelona though? They're on an entirely different level to every team in the world. Just look at the El Clasico games where Xabi Alonso had to resort to playing wayward long balls out wide and how his pass completion was incredibly low for his standard and he's one of the best playmakers in the world. Barcelona are the best side of all time and when they're at their best they're unbeatable. It's not really a good barometer to see how well a player does against them.

To say he doesn't perform in big games is something I really disagree with. In games against Chelsea and Liverpool last season I remember him being the stand out performer, but no one remembers when he does well but everyone remembers when he does badly.

At the start of the season he was injured anyway and Anderson and Cleverley were given chances and they both took them. Fergie never drops in form players so when he was available it wasn't a case of him not being good enough, it was because the other players were doing well so couldn't be dropped. Now that Anderson's form has faded, Carrick's being brought back into the side.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

This "we must have an English manager" stuff is all crap. If there were enough good English managers around they'd be winning domestic and European trophies.
I agree that there's a case for having a manager who speaks English but I'd far sooner the England team actually had a chance of winning something than employed another Steve McLaren simply because they're English.

Glen Hoddle wouldn't be another Steve McLaren - don't you remember that amazing night in Italy when we held them to a 0-0 (and were the better team)? Don't you remember how good the team were at the World Cup itself?

If we do go foreign, I can't see past Hiddink.

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Yea i would be down with Hoddle as well - he clearly is one of brightest English coaches we have. Hell I even think Wilkins could put his hand up to be coach, he has allot experience being assistant Manager over the last decade during a successful decade for Chelsea and everything i hear him speak on TV - he clearly knows his football.

The big question is of course - would he want it?

 

[War]

How can you judge him on his games against Barcelona though? They're on an entirely different level to every team in the world. . Barcelona are the best side of all time and when they're at their best they're unbeatable. It's not really a good barometer to see how well a player does against them.


To say he doesn't perform in big games is something I really disagree with. In games against Chelsea and Liverpool last season I remember him being the stand out performer, but no one remembers when he does well but everyone remembers when he does badly.

Thanks the benchmark. If ENG are going to win a W Cup or even a EURO next year - they are going to have to go through Spain which is the nucleus of Barca's midfield.

You cannot expect a coach, to pick you for the national side, with such hypothetical matches in mind & the fact that a manager like SAF was relegating you to bench. He may consider mental scars or that you are not that good.

I highlighted the games he did well in the league, so you can't same i'm looking past those performances. But the Barca failures is significant. After those good league games, the final vs Barca was a redemption for him and he looked just as out of place as in 09.

Its like a batsman in cricket during Australia's glory era of 95-2007, scoring runs against other good teams - but they face AUS they crumble every time. Your failures vs AUS stick out.

Its atmosphere's and big matches vs BARCA in a CL Final etc, that separates men from the boys in football. That's why are his big performance vs Barca when Arsenal won 2-1 last season, Capello and everyone was raving about Wilshire.

At the start of the season he was injured anyway and Anderson and Cleverley were given chances and they both took them. Fergie never drops in form players so when he was available it wasn't a case of him not being good enough, it was because the other players were doing well so couldn't be dropped. Now that Anderson's form has faded, Carrick's being brought back into the side.

Nah Carrick wasn't injured at the start of the season. I'm pretty sure Carrick has been involved in almost all of United league, CL etc games this season and just checking it back here - this proves it. Manchester United in FA Premier League 2011/2012 fixture

I distinctly remember Carrick starting the 3-2 community sheild vs Man City, then he was substituted in the second half for Cleverley. It was in that game Cleverley starred and he Fergie then was playing him with Carrick fit, until Cleverly himself got injured vs Bolton.

Plus i'm not what evidence you have that Anderson good early season form is fading and Carrick has replaced him of late. Where did you get that from?.

Anderson has been solid all season, i haven't seen any form dipping signs.

Im 100% sure also that in United 2-0 league vs Norwich before the current international break, Anderson/Fletcher started in mid-field and Carrick was an unused sub.

Just look at the El Clasico games where Xabi Alonso had to resort to playing wayward long balls out wide and how his pass completion was incredibly low for his standard and he's one of the best playmakers in the world.

I had to take this point out, since i dont see a correlation with Alonso at Madrid vs Barca to Carrick at United vs Barca.

- Alonso is already proven world-class quality. Carrick is nowhere near that.

- Alonso plays with Xavi with Spain. You let him and Xavi exchange teams and Xavi would have been forced to do the same, given how those games were played out tactically.

- the tactics Real used last season in the 4 classico's (after the 5-0 Barca win), when they had Pepe in mid-field trying to neutralizer Xavi and co, made the mid-field a scrap match.

- So the little time Alonso had on the ball, all he had to was send those long balls to pace Ronaldo and Di Maria on the flanks.

Xavi was involved at least, Carrick passing game became utterly redundant i those two CL finals vs Barca.

 

[Lee1981]

As always War your points are spot on.

 

[barmyarmy]

Of course I remember Hoddle as England manager and it sure helped simply being able to pick the Arsenal back 4. He's not managed at the top level for years though. Venables was a better manager too imo.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Thanks the benchmark. If ENG are going to win a W Cup or even a EURO next year - they are going to have to go through Spain which is the nucleus of Barca's midfield.

You cannot expect a coach, to pick you for the national side, with such hypothetical matches in mind & the fact that a manager like SAF was relegating you to bench. He may consider mental scars or that you are not that good.

I highlighted the games he did well in the league, so you can't same i'm looking past those performances. But the Barca failures is significant. After those good league games, the final vs Barca was a redemption for him and he looked just as out of place as in 09.

Its like a batsman in cricket during Australia's glory era of 95-2007, scoring runs against other good teams - but they face AUS they crumble every time. Your failures vs AUS stick out.

Its atmosphere's and big matches vs BARCA in a CL Final etc, that separates men from the boys in football. That's why are his big performance vs Barca when Arsenal won 2-1 last season, Capello and everyone was raving about Wilshire.




Nah Carrick wasn't injured at the start of the season. I'm pretty sure Carrick has been involved in almost all of United league, CL etc games this season and just checking it back here - this proves it. Manchester United in FA Premier League 2011/2012 fixture

I distinctly remember Carrick starting the 3-2 community sheild vs Man City, then he was substituted in the second half for Cleverley. It was in that game Cleverley starred and he Fergie then was playing him with Carrick fit, until Cleverly himself got injured vs Bolton.

Plus i'm not what evidence you have that Anderson good early season form is fading and Carrick has replaced him of late. Where did you get that from?.

Anderson has been solid all season, i haven't seen any form dipping signs.

Im 100% sure also that in United 2-0 league vs Norwich before the current international break, Anderson/Fletcher started in mid-field and Carrick was an unused sub.



I had to take this point out, since i dont see a correlation with Alonso at Madrid vs Barca to Carrick at United vs Barca.

- Alonso is already proven world-class quality. Carrick is nowhere near that.

- Alonso plays with Xavi with Spain. You let him and Xavi exchange teams and Xavi would have been forced to do the same, given how those games were played out tactically.

- the tactics Real used last season in the 4 classico's (after the 5-0 Barca win), when they had Pepe in mid-field trying to neutralizer Xavi and co, made the mid-field a scrap match.

- So the little time Alonso had on the ball, all he had to was send those long balls to pace Ronaldo and Di Maria on the flanks.

Xavi was involved at least, Carrick passing game became utterly redundant i those two CL finals vs Barca.

He definitely was injured, not a major injury but he was only fit for the bench at the beginning of the season.

It clearly is fading. He started very well but his passing has become more wayward and he hasn't influenced games as well as he did at the start.

Yes they did start, and I'd also like to point out how incredibly open Utd have been when they haven't played Carrick. They've sacrificed Carrick's defensive intelligence for more firepower going forward because they can afford to do so at the moment. But it's had its consequences and it shows with Utd having conceded the most shots in the league and visible openness.

The point was that even the very best of players struggle against Barca when they're at their best.

Carrick is always going to struggle against a passing and pressing side as good as Spain because of the role he plays because he won't be able to play at his own tempo. However, he would provide a much more solid defensive base than playing the likes of Parker. Against Germany in the World Cup, had Carrick been playing in that midfield, in a 3 man midfield, England would have done 100 times better because they need a defensively solid base to protect from counter attacks.

I'm not deluding myself into thinking Carrick's a brilliant player. He isn't, but he is a very effective player in a certain role. England are crying out for a central midfield who is positionally intelligent so why not turn to Carrick? He'd certainly be a better fit in the side than Barry. In a few years time, or hopefully sooner, I think that the England midfield won't need Carrick because Wilshere and Cleverley will have matured and be fit for the side, but at the moment if they're going to play the likes of Parker and Lampard they need someone who protects them.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Of course I remember Hoddle as England manager and it sure helped simply being able to pick the Arsenal back 4. He's not managed at the top level for years though. Venables was a better manager too imo.

I wouldn't say no to Venables taking the job again - he shouldn't have lost it in the first place.

 

[Auwais]

I'm with Mani on this. Carrick isn't a world beater by any stretch of the imagination but he could still be useful to the England set-up.

I'd love to see a Carrick-Wilshere double pivot in that England central midfield.

 

[War]

He definitely was injured, not a major injury but he was only fit for the bench at the beginning of the season.

Maybe it was minor, but that injury was not the main reason Carrick was relegated to bench player at the start of the season. It was Cleverley's impressive performance in the Community shield.

It clearly is fading. He started very well but his passing has become more wayward and he hasn't influenced games as well as he did at the start.

I presume you are talking about Anderson here and well i haven't noticed any such thing from him recently. However it certainly isn't a situation as you suggested, that Carrick of late has been picked over him. That scenario hasn't happen in any competition for United this season.

Yes they did start, and I'd also like to point out how incredibly open Utd have been when they haven't played Carrick. They've sacrificed Carrick's defensive intelligence for more firepower going forward because they can afford to do so at the moment. But it's had its consequences and it shows with Utd having conceded the most shots in the league and visible openness.

True. But in the future when Cleverley returns and Ferguson lets say wants to play 4-3-3 with Rooney up front by himself, instead of 4-4-1-1 with Welbeck or Hernandez leading the line. The mid-fielders likely to come in are Fletcher/Park/Giggs - i dont see him going for Carrick based on recent evidence.

The point was that even the very best of players struggle against Barca when they're at their best.

Yes, but top players (English players) also step up against them - Wilshire, they few times Barca have been beaten during their recent dominance.

Dont you see the significance of Wilshire, a teenager, shining against those giants in his first match versus them - compared to Carrick looking woeful in two big CL finals vs them?. Isn't it obvious how that would influence the selection of Capello and Feguson currently?.

Carrick is always going to struggle against a passing and pressing side as good as Spain because of the role he plays because he won't be able to play at his own tempo. However, he would provide a much more solid defensive base than playing the likes of Parker. Against Germany in the World Cup, had Carri
ck been playing in that midfield, in a 3 man midfield, England would have done 100 times better because they need a defensively solid base to protect from counter attacks.

The bold is gross a exaggeration my friend.

Firstly since when was Carrick ever known for providing a solid defensive base?. Carrick is a poor mans Xavi/Xabi/Pirlo, his strength is his passing game.

ENG mid-field since Hargreaves got injured lacks a "destroyer" in the centre of the park, not a passing playmaker. So i'm not sure how you have managed to deduce that hypothetically Carrick was playing vs Germany in a 3-man mid-field, ENG would have done 100 times better.

If anyone should been in such a mid-field in that WC game it was possibly Parker based on performances post WC for ENG. Since he was in the 30-man camp and was having a great season at West Ham at the time.

Parker clearly is better defensively than Carrick and although he is not a natural DM - he plays that role better than Carrick. While the emergence of Wilshire who is a provides the same passing and positioning sense than Carrick.

I'm not deluding myself into thinking Carrick's a brilliant player. He isn't, but he is a very effective player in a certain role. England are crying out for a central midfield who is positionally intelligent so why not turn to Carrick? He'd certainly be a better fit in the side than Barry. In a few years time, or hopefully sooner, I think that the England midfield won't need Carrick because Wilshere and Cleverley will have matured and be fit for the side, but at the moment if they're going to play the likes of Parker and Lampard they need someone who protects them.

As aforementioned ENG mid-field needs a tough tackling defensive mid-fielder who is positionally intelligent to sit deep and just pass forward to better players i.e what Makelele used to do. Not the role that Carrick brings.

Barry is just playing because no-one better is around. But although he is not special, at his best during the WC 2010 qualifiers - he excelled in DM role in ENGs then 4-2-3-1 formation with Heskey leading the line. Thats what made him so important which resulted in Capello and everyone in ENG, being so desperate to have hive fit for the WC, after he got injured at the back end of 09/10 season for Man City. Capello ignored Carrick at the time for Barry, so clearly even back then he knew that what Carrick brought to table, was not what ENGs midfield.

In think you a confusing Carrick's strengths as good passer who is fairly disciplined positionally - to a midfield destroyer.

ENG dont need Carrick now or any-time in the near future - especially for EURO 12. Even if Hargreaves for eg doesn't prove his fitness this season, then next best mid-fielder in ENG who IMO could play DM role other than Parker and Barry is Joe Barton.

But even Barton is just a hybrid mid-fielder like Parker who just has a good defensive game who can be used as a destroyer at international level - however its not natural to him and he could at times be indiscipline and venture forward.

This entire discussion probably emphasizes why producing DMs is such a big issue for ENG. The other top EURO nations dont have a problem with this and in a way its disappointing that the FA couldn' convince Emmauel Frimpong to play for ENG like they did for Welbeck, since Frimpong was potentially the young DM that ENG were looking for.

 

[War]

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