England National football team thread

[War]

No Wayne Rooney? Time to earn your ?6m, Fabio Capello - Martin Samuel | Mail Online

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Carrick's best asset is his positional skills. His ability to intercept play is brilliant. His passing is simple and does a job, circulating the ball around. I really wouldn't consider him a poor man's Alonso because he's not a playmaker. Just because he doesn't go in for tough tackles doesn't mean he isn't a defensive player. Parker doesn't have the discipline to play in that role, and is wasted anyway as he is much more of a box-to-box player.

Gerrard, Wilshere, Parker, Barton - they're all aggressive players in their mentality. They like to bomb forward, roam around, go in for tackles so another destroyer isn't what England need. They need more balance. They need an unfussy, simple player who balances the midfield and offers a solid base defensive, i.e. Carrick.

I'd also disagree that Wilshere is positionally disciplined. Still think he's quite naive in how he likes to roam around and needs another defensive player around him.

 

[War]

BBC Sport - Wayne Rooney banned for three England Euro 2012 matches

The worst fears have come through. Big seasons for Caroll, Welbeck, Sturridge, Agnonlahor and Bent coming up.

 

[harrisb]

Yes it's a pain, but you can't argue that he deserves it, if it were somebody like Villa or Iniesta, and UEFA gave them a shortened ban, we would all be complaining about it.

I think that we'll probably end up going for Welbeck, or maybe Crouch depending on if you play 2 up front or just 1 with somebody like Gerrard in behind.

 

[War]

Yes it's a pain, but you can't argue that he deserves it, if it were somebody like Villa or Iniesta, and UEFA gave them a shortened ban, we would all be complaining about it.

I think that we'll probably end up going for Welbeck, or maybe Crouch depending on if you play 2 up front or just 1 with somebody like Gerrard in behind.

Nah Crouch is out of reckoning TBF. He and Owen are the two unlikeliest strikers to be picked.

In a way although its early days i think Capello best back-up option in Rooney absence, its the play Young/Bent/Downing as the front 3 in a 4-3-3 formation. We already know for sure that those three guys know how to play with each other.

 

[swacker]

It's about time he learnt to keep his temper, there's no suspicious his ability but his spoilt little boy tantrums will always undermine him.

 

[War]

Carrick's best asset is his positional skills. His ability to intercept play is brilliant. His passing is simple and does a job, circulating the ball around. I really wouldn't consider him a poor man's Alonso because he's not a playmaker. Just because he doesn't go in for tough tackles doesn't mean he isn't a defensive player.

No i'm not confusing the fact that just because Carrick doesn't go for tough tackles - that doesn't make him a defensive player at all. Players like Mikel, Busquetes, Jeremy Toulalan, Thiago Motta, Makelele, Deschamps were/are DMs like that, who intercept play well and pass it to better players instead of going in for aggressive tough tackles.

Carrick certainly isn't like any of those names and he certainly is mid-field playmaker of a Xavi/Pirlo/Alonso mould- except of farrrr less all round quality.

Although i criticize Carrick for not having a defensive game to fall back on, if a high quality opposition negates his passing him like Barca did in those 2 CL Finals. Carrick certainly needs a strong though tackling mid-fielder to assist him in possibly getting his passing to have some effect on proceedings.

Fletcher and Hargreaves were missing from both those finals. I wouldn't go to as far as to suggest, if either of them had played in those two (2) finals Carrick would have played better - but him not having that protector made him quite useless.

If Carrick is to play for ENG, i would be willing to accept, that in Capello's current 4-3-3 formation, he could possibly play in mid-field that looks something like this.

-------------------Carrick-------Parker/Hargreaves

-----------------------------Gerrard-----------------

But as it stands with the emergence of Wilshire and Cleverley, their is no need for him & one certainly can't expect him to get picked by Capello is he isn't a 1st team regular at United.

Parker doesn't have the discipline to play in that role, and is wasted anyway as he is much more of a box-to-box player.

Ok so you are saying in all the games Parker has played for England in that defensive mid-fielder role for England, since he became a fixture in the Wales game in March, you have seen a player who has generally been indisciplined in that role at international level?.

Gerrard, Wilshere, Parker, Barton - they're all aggressive players in their mentality. They like to bomb forward, roam around, go in for tackles so another destroyer isn't what England need. They need more balance. They need an unfussy, simple player who balances the midfield and offers a solid base defensive, i.e. Carrick.

Yes I my myself mentioned in a previous post - that Parker and Barton are mentally aggressive players of the box-to-box nature. But I also said their instinct to go for tackles makes them go hybrid DMs.

Pretty much everyone that has given Parker solid adulation on his efforts for ENG, West Ham and now Spurs, sees this as facet the Parker is excelling in. Check these recent reporters opinion on him:

BBC Sport - Euro 2012: Reporters pick their England XIs for Poland & Ukraine

Leo's London: Scott Parker is season's best buy | Mail Online

I'm not in the business of trying to change opinion, but i'm afraid you are in minority on your analysis of Parker.

I'd also disagree that Wilshere is positionally disciplined. Still think he's quite naive in how he likes to roam around and needs another defensive player around him.

With England yea, but to me at least with Arsenal last season when Fabregas and Nasri was around in their then formation of:

-------------------VP----------------------

Nasri-----------Fabregas-----------Walcott

-----------Wilshire-------Song-------------

I thought he was fairly disciplined position staying deeping with Song, and chosen his moment to go forward sparingly. He generally left to those duties to the front "4".

Wilshire has yet to play with Gerrard in the ENG side & i expect he would adapt a deeper mid-field role like he did with Arsenal last season next to a DM like Parker/Hargreaves come to EUROs.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

Hmm it seems we've reached a dead end in this debate. I disagree with the role you say Carrick plays. I've always liked him for his defensive ability and balance that he gives to the side. Just seems like the perfect polar opposite to the rest of the English midfielders around.

I would much rather see the youth be brought into the squad (i.e. Wilshere and Cleverley) but seeing as both are out with injury that's why I believe Carrick should be in for the time-being.

Ok so you are saying in all the games Parker has played for England in that defensive mid-fielder role for England, since he became a fixture in the Wales game in March, you have seen a player who has generally been indisciplined in that role at international level?.

I don't really understand what you mean by this question.

I like Parker, I think he's a good player and has done a good job in the matches he's played. I was pointing out the consequences of playing him and Barry/Lampard which are the gaps between midfield and defence (seriously, they are really big at times, just like at the world cup) and against a good opposition they'll be exploited and mauled on the counter attack. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I'd prefer a more balanced midfield.

The final point you made is an interesting one. How exactly are England going to play at the Euros? Is Gerrard just going to fit straight back into the side? We have no idea how Wilshere and Gerrard are going to work together, but my guess is that they won't if it's a 2 man midfield.

People are going on about the ramifications of Rooney being suspended but personally I think the central midfield is a greater issue. Wilshere is out with a long term injury and will miss a lot of matches, Gerrard has been out with a long term injury and has missed a lot of matches. No one knows how they're going to play together and there isn't much time to figure out how they will. Will Parker still play? What about Lampard and Barry? Cleverley has to be around the squad now too.

 

[Auwais]

This is where England fall apart at the top level, their strength in depth is non-existant in central midfield. And when they do have a "continental" type central midfielder, they either play him out of position (Scholes) or underutilise him (Carrick).

But with the likes of Wilshere, McEachran and Cleverley coming through, that should change in the future.

 

[War]

Hmm it seems we've reached a dead end in this debate. I disagree with the role you say Carrick plays. I've always liked him for his defensive ability and balance that he gives to the side. Just seems like the perfect polar opposite to the rest of the English midfielders around.

I would much rather see the youth be brought into the squad (i.e. Wilshere and Cleverley) but seeing as both are out with injury that's why I believe Carrick should be in for the time-being.

No issue with the disagreement, i just see what notable defensive game that Carrick has, that you have noticed over the years.

I dont necessarily disagree with the part in bold. All im pointing out is you can't expect him to be picked for England if SAF is not playing him regularly for Man Utd ATM.

SAF not playing him, would clearly highlight to Capello that Ferguson doesn't trust him in big games currently.

I don't really understand what you mean by this question.

I like Parker, I think he's a good player and has done a good job in the matches he's played. I was pointing out the consequences of playing him and Barry/Lampard which are the gaps between midfield and defence (seriously, they are really big at times, just like at the world cup) and against a good opposition they'll be exploited and mauled on the counter attack. Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I'd prefer a more balanced midfield.

Without Wilshire, Gerrard, Hargreaves i agree that this could happen. Just that i dont see how you reckon Carrick can aid in preventing/balancing the mid-field better than Parker.

The final point you made is an interesting one. How exactly are England going to play at the Euros? Is Gerrard just going to fit straight back into the side? We have no idea how Wilshere and Gerrard are going to work together, but my guess is that they won't if it's a 2 man midfield.

People are going on about the ramifications of Rooney being suspended but personally I think the central midfield is a greater issue. Wilshere is out with a long term injury and will miss a lot of matches, Gerrard has been out with a long term injury and has missed a lot of matches. No one knows how they're going to play together and there isn't much time to figure out how they will. Will Parker still play? What about Lampard and Barry? Cleverley has to be around the squad now too.

All we can do is back hope that Gerrard (who is likely to start vs United 2moro, which will give him 8 months to get back into to form by the EUROs) and Wilshire to come back and return to form quickly.

I would expect, given that ENG are now playing with a 4-3-3 formation, Gerrard/Wilshire will play in 3-man mid-field flanked by a defensive mid-fielder, either Parker or Hargreaves.

I expect Lampard either to be squad player or not make the final 23 altogether. While presuming United has a excellent season i expect Cleverley to make make the final 23, probably in place of Lampard.

James Milner will also be around somewhere.

So off-the bat my 23-man squad and starting XI, presuming all are fit ATS would look like this:

GK: Hart, Green, Carson (maybe Foster as the 3rd keeper if he can be tempted out of his international retirement by next season).

DEF: Terry, Ferdinand, Jones, Dawson/Lescott, A Cole, Richards, Walker, Baines.

MID: Gerrard, Wilshire, Young, Parker, Cleverley, Hargreaves, Walcott, Downing

STR: Caroll/Sturridge, Bent, Welbeck, Rooney

- I'm presuming at this early stage, that Cleverly could keep Lamps out.

- Also presuming Hargreaves proves his fitness this season, becomes a City regular, thus forcing Barry out.

- However with regards to Micah Richards who i have in bold, its obvious Capello has odly not been picking him. So maybe if lets say Jones as the season develops shows more positioning sense the more he plays at RB this season for United, Capello may just take one pure right-back in either Richards, Walker or Kelly and bank on Jones's versatility.

This would leave an opening for another mid-fielder of striker to be picked i.e J Cole, Milner, A Johnson, Lampard.

 

[Dr. Pepper]

What about Gary Cahill? I hope he doesn't go but given the number of games he's played recently I reckon he will.

Where do you stand with Jermain Defoe? Not really sure what to make of him. I don't think he's as great a "goalscorer" he's made out to be. He doesn't score consistently enough and just has patches. However his overall game has improved a lot - link up play, pressing etc.

 

[War]

What about Gary Cahill? I hope he doesn't go but given the number of games he's played recently I reckon he will.

Presuming Rio/Terry are fit to start, i would have Jones, Dawson, Lescott, Smalling ahead of him in the pecking order to back-up the main defensive duo.

Capello obviously has been picking Cahill ahead of the aforementioned names to partner Terry, but i'm not too convinced about him.

Where do you stand with Jermain Defoe? Not really sure what to make of him. I don't think he's as great a "goalscorer" he's made out to be. He doesn't score consistently enough and just has patches. However his overall game has improved a lot - link up play, pressing etc.

Ye the bold summarizes his game pretty much. If he plays he will be a impact sub instead of of starting player.

In Rooney's absence, ENG in their 4-3-3 formation, will need a target man and a wing forward. That isn't one of Defoe's best roles, he plays best a second striker in 4-4-2 and that is the past

Young has one of the front three positions.

Either Welbeck, Bent or Carroll will lead the line.

Sturridge, Downing, A Johnson or J Cole will be the other wing-forward in the 4-3-3 (maybe Ox Chamberlain too if his hype is be bought into).

So really i think Defoe will miss out.

 

[Bevab]

Carroll can do a good target man role, he is good in the air and is physically good enough. But however, does he have the skill?

 

[War]

Wayne Rooney victim Miodrag Dzudovic will back ban appeal - ESPN Soccernet

Hmm..

 

[MasterBlaster76]

It's about time he learnt to keep his temper, there's no suspicious his ability but his spoilt little boy tantrums will always undermine him.

Maybe you don't remember, or maybe you're not old enough but there was once a player called Eric Cantona - who was amazing. One night, he booted a loudmouth, racist Crystal Palace fan in the face and was banned for nine months or thereabouts. When he came back, he simply wasn't the same player any more. He was still great, but there was another level to his play that was missing and I'm not talking about the dirty side. As Sven said, don't tame Rooney.

----------

Yes it's a pain, but you can't argue that he deserves it, if it were somebody like Villa or Iniesta, and UEFA gave them a shortened ban, we would all be complaining about it.

I think that we'll probably end up going for Welbeck, or maybe Crouch depending on if you play 2 up front or just 1 with somebody like Gerrard in behind.

The way he's playing right now, Welbeck has to be given a proper go in the upcoming friendlies. But like the player himself, I reckon Crouch's England days are behind him. Sure he has a great goals/games ratio, but remember that the majority of those came against the world's minnows.

Edit: I'm not surprised by Rooney's ban - it was a straight red card, it was a deserved red card and there can be no appeal - he blatantly kicked the guy in the legs. When's the draw for the tournament made anyway - if we can get a group that isn't too tough, maybe we can muddle through without him and let him loose in the latter stages. Or maybe we'll just muddle our way out - if we turn up in a similar frame of mine to SA 2010.