England National football team thread

[Bevab]

England wouldn't win anything unless they do a Chelsea at the World Cup.

 

[shravi]

Well, it hasn't worked out too well in recent matches against the bigger teams...

If we carry on the way we're going, we won't win a damn thing in any of our lifetimes and personally, I want to see England win something at some point! And Ste, what's silly about that list of players? They're all world class, they're all relatively short. Point made, I think.

They aren't world class because they are short.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

They aren't world class because they are short.

No, but they're still world class. Look back over the years, there are more short world class attacking players than taller guys. When it comes to defending obviously, height is an attribute that you want especially when talking CBs.

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Aguero - there's another one: 5ft 8in. Look, this thing about short players is not coming from me, it's coming from a former England manager - a good technical himself - Glen Hoddle.

 

[War]

BBC Sport - Jermain Defoe: Andre Villas-Boas rues Tottenham striker's injury

Bring in Carroll i would think.

 

[shravi]

No, but they're still world class. Look back over the years, there are more short world class attacking players than taller guys. When it comes to defending obviously, height is an attribute that you want especially when talking CBs.

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Aguero - there's another one: 5ft 8in. Look, this thing about short players is not coming from me, it's coming from a former England manager - a good technical himself - Glen Hoddle.

It depends where you are playing though, Spain play Busquets and Alonso as their 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation. They aren't especially short. Gerrard has a similar body frame to Alonso and has been played out of position as a number 10 in the 3 rather than in the defensive midfield pairing. However, who would you have as a number 10? Cleverley? Wilshere? They are good players, but as Stinky said, however good they are, there is no shame in admitting that you are 2nd or 3rd best to Mata/Cazorla/Silva/Fabregas/Iniesta/Xavi/etc.

Play to your strengths as Stinky said. Man City, although they didn't exactly win the English Premier League with a majority English contingent, they virtually had a team of basketball players apart from perhaps Tevez, Nasri, Aguero, and Silva who didn't always start together.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Absolutely - play to your strengths, there's no argument from me there. What I'm saying, what Hoddle is getting at, is that we should be giving the technical players the bigger push, regardless of their height. What we shouldn't be doing is going for an athletically built 6ft 2in player, who can't trap a bag of cement, over a 5ft 5in player who's technically superior. No doubt about it, we haven't got the Iniesta/Xavi type players, but when we do find them, we need to be giving them the full backing rather than saying 'you're too short/not strong enough' Fill your team with technically gifted players and it doesn't matter how strong they are because the opposition can never get near enough to them to use their strength!

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BBC Sport - Jermain Defoe: Andre Villas-Boas rues Tottenham striker's injury

Bring in Carroll i would think.

When he was at Chelsea, I never saw myself saying this but maybe Sturridge should be given a go? His form for Liverpool is fantastic right now.

 

[War]

Absolutely - play to your strengths, there's no argument from me there. What I'm saying, what Hoddle is getting at, is that we should be giving the technical players the bigger push, regardless of their height. What we shouldn't be doing is going for an athletically built 6ft 2in player, who can't trap a bag of cement, over a 5ft 5in player who's technically superior. No doubt about it, we haven't got the Iniesta/Xavi type players, but when we do find them, we need to be giving them the full backing rather than saying 'you're too short/not strong enough' Fill your team with technically gifted players and it doesn't matter how strong they are because the opposition can never get near enough to them to use their strength!

Yes this is especially true because we both know england have a pretty bad history in the 25 years of undervaluing or misusing some of its most technically gifted players such as hoddle, barnes, le tissier, joe cole and scholes - for that more athletic british type player of a gerrard ilk.

So indeed the generation of highly technical players england do produce need to be given prominence.

When he was at Chelsea, I never saw myself saying this but maybe Sturridge should be given a go? His form for Liverpool is fantastic right now.

For sure he does. To me all sturridge needed was a team and manager that was willing to trust him and give him games. The atmospheres at city and chelesa didn't suit such a young player, much less a young english one. Its no coincidence that the last manager in owen coyle @ bolton who did want brendan rogers was doing now with him, saw him looking lethal.

But its seems like he could miss the brazil game unfortunately, which is what i was afraid of Jermain Defoe, Daniel Sturridge a doubt for England - ESPN FC. Really would like england to have to have its full compliment of players fit for this exciting game. Last time we played brazil in 2009 friendly in doha, so many big players pulled out, the game became a total farce.

 

[War]

Sam Wallace: Just as Cole reaches the elusive century, he is no longer England's best left-back - News & Comment - Football - The Independent


Key point & stat:

By the mid-point of last month, Opta Stats calculated that Baines had created 76 goalscoring "chances" ? as per their definition of the term ? for Everton this season, more, at that point, than any player in the Premier League, La Liga, the Bundesliga or Serie A.

Its hard to admit, but after Cole has gone just about 12 years being unchallenged in the role (although wayne bridge during a small period was a decent challenger), maybe its time for Baines to be # 1 left-back for England.

 

[shravi]

It's not a maybe for me. Baines should be a dead-cert to start.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

And Ste, what's silly about that list of players? They're all world class, they're all relatively short. Point made, I think.

Iniesta, Xavi, Ramos, Pique, Puyol, Cassilas, Raul, Ronald, Figo, Eusabio.

So many world class players have came from the Iberian Peninsula. We should steal kids from there and nurture them to create our future side.

 

[War]

BBC Sport - Rio Ferdinand says he would 'love' a recall to the England squad

Keep up the spirit uncle Rio!

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Iniesta, Xavi, Ramos, Pique, Puyol, Cassilas, Raul, Ronald, Figo, Eusabio.

So many world class players have came from the Iberian Peninsula. We should steal kids from there and nurture them to create our future side.

Well... we should stop nurturing their kids by signing them up at 16/17/18...or maybe we should dig deeper for English grandparents...

What benefit does signing foreign kids give to English football? None whatsoever! Young English kids cannot learn much from foreign kids who have the same amount of experience, but with the added disadvantage of being in a foreign country. There should be a rule whereby foreigners can only be signed after a certain age. We can go round and round in circles about this - the fact is the Premiership has around 38% English players, which is simply nonsensical - how can we be expected to compete with the bigger countries such as Spain when they have a talent pool of 60% to pick from? Even Sepp Blatter said England has too many foreign players, and he's definitely anti-English!

It was all good when we were getting players like Klinsmann, Zola and Bergkamp - legends that our kids learned a hell of a lot from. What can they learn from foreign kids? Come to that, what can they learn from substandard Russian/Bosnian/insert country here players?

Yes this is especially true because we both know england have a pretty bad history in the 25 years of undervaluing or misusing some of its most technically gifted players such as hoddle, barnes, le tissier, joe cole and scholes - for that more athletic british type player of a gerrard ilk.

So indeed the generation of highly technical players england do produce need to be given prominence.

This has to come from the grass roots level. Ask yourself this: if you have after school football practice that is dominated by big bullies, will the shorter but possibly better technical players be compelled to play? Either the bigger players need to learn better technique (of course, to an extent that can't really be taught) or they need to be passed up in favour of better technical players, whether they're 5ft or 6.6ft (fully grown of course). Or they need to be put in defence or defensive midfield, where their height and strength could be put to better use.

As you said - Hoddle, Barnes, Le Tissier, Cole and Scholes - all to some extent or other wasted by England.

 

[puddleduck]

Too much emphasis is placed on winning and losing with kids these days. It's changing slowly, but smaller pitches, tiny goals and a complete lack of regard for the result are all steps in the right direction. I'm not saying we all start playing hold each other's hands and kiss chase, but with kids the result should be the last thing that matters.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

You've missed my point. I was trying to demonstrate how if you self-select a sample like that you can state pretty much any point you want.

14 of the last 26 of a fairly well known player of the year awards have went to players 6 foot tall or over. That's over half of the awards. Average male height is something like 5 foot 9 or 5 foot 10. So that would suggest that there is a decent correlation with taller players being slightly better at football.

Only it doesn't. Because it's meaningless.

There is a problem with the size of pitches used at certain age groups meaning the more athletic players will be favoured to try and win those U-14 matches. When really the goal of the academy should be to try to develop the best players possible. This should obviously be changed and players should be brought through based on their footballing ability and potential more than their ability to run. But to suggest shorter players are better and should be favoured over the taller players is absolutely stupid. No matter how many world class 5 foot 6 players you cherry pick to argue your point.

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Too much emphasis is placed on winning and losing with kids these days. It's changing slowly, but smaller pitches, tiny goals and a complete lack of regard for the result are all steps in the right direction. I'm not saying we all start playing hold each other's hands and kiss chase, but with kids the result should be the last thing that matters.

to an extent this.

The result has to matter though as developing players also involved developing mentalities and mental attributes.

 

[MasterBlaster76]

Too much emphasis is placed on winning and losing with kids these days. It's changing slowly, but smaller pitches, tiny goals and a complete lack of regard for the result are all steps in the right direction. I'm not saying we all start playing hold each other's hands and kiss chase, but with kids the result should be the last thing that matters.

Quite so.

Ste: It's a known fact that shorter players generally have a lower centre of gravity, giving them better balance and more agility. It's no accident that the two players widely regarded as the best of all time (Pele and Maradona) were relatively short.