India Team Discussion

[harishankar]

@Bevab and @harishankar waiting for your post-mortem of the World Cup Final.

Mostly agree with the pointers from @harishankar . Let's wait for the full analysis.

I am the merest spectator and casual fan and don’t know much about this sport from a technical perspective.

Bowlers win matches. In that perspective the semi final against NZ should have rung some alarm bells, that despite a huge total it was purely a late magic spell by Shami that won us the match and that too by only 70 runs. The bowling leaked runs all over the place and we didn’t have any options for a sixth bowler despite Rohit Sharma hinting at experimenting in the Netherlands game. In the final also, the bowlers did leak runs in the power play despite early wickets but Shami or Bumrah couldn’t get a magic spell and there wasn’t enough runs to defend. It didn’t help that Australia always bat so aggressively which puts so much additional pressure on the bowlers. When you have only 5 bowlers who bowl 10 overs each, options are limited and opponents start lining you up.

But I would say. Let us go and analyze what went right in the Dhoni era. Mentally strong and very tactical captain with a cool head who didn’t drop shoulders when the going got tough, a team that batted way down with the captain himself holding the lower middle order so that the top order played with real freedom, and batsmen who could actually bowl 5 or 6 overs decently in case a regular bowler had an off day. We seem to miss depth when plan A fails and need a plan B.

The Sri Lankan World Cup winning team of 1996 was quite similar if I recall right, especially batting depth and bowling options. In subcontinent conditions especially, batting all rounders are crucial for when things go wrong.

 

[noducksallowed]

It is in domestic cricket.

Might as well shut down Indian cricket then by your logic, what’s the point of competing if you’re going to be dismissive of players who haven’t had a proper run yet?

I haven't been dismissive at all. I'm just saying you simply naming guys cos of their stats doesn't answer my question.

Then again I guess its an impossible question to answer atm anyway.

It also highlights how poor the domestic structure must be which is probably the case for everyone except for Aus, SA and Eng.

 

[Bevab]

I haven't been dismissive at all. I'm just saying you simply naming guys cos of their stats doesn't answer my question.

Then again I guess its an impossible question to answer atm anyway.

It also highlights how poor the domestic structure must be which is probably the case for everyone except for Aus, SA and Eng.

Glad you could see sense that your question is nonsensical.

Why don’t you go around and try to find batters averaging 50 plus in the domestic circuits of those countries with a strong system before passing judgements that have no basis in reality?

 

[wasteyouryouth]

 

[wasteyouryouth]

I'm enjoying the hot takes from disappointed India fans.

 

[Bigby Wolf]

I'm enjoying the hot takes from disappointed India fans.

As I said the vicious loop continues.

Although this Thala , Rohit and Kohli fans are something else on X always onto something.

 

[icyman]

While Dhoni did win us an ICC trophy- I have always felt his captaincy was predictable towards the end. Post 2011, the ODI template was more on containing runs in the middle overs with the help of spinners and hope for wickets to fall. Whilst batting, it was to take the game as deep as possible. It worked for him on numerous occassions, but certainly wasn't fun to watch.

Rohit as a captain is one I rate far more than the previous guys (only limited overs). In my opinion, Rohit shouldn't bother himself with India's Test captaincy, as that game really isn't for him/ his style. His leadership seems to have spurred a number of guys and the performances we have seen have been very good. Rarely saw that in the Kohli era tbh. Rohit and Ganguly would be right on top when it comes to the Indian captain who made a difference ( I cant say much for Azhar- despite his record, he led us in 3 World Cups- but I was way too young then, to analyze his style of leadership)

Bowlers win matches. In that perspective the semi final against NZ should have rung some alarm bells, that despite a huge total it was purely a late magic spell by Shami that won us the match and that too by only 70 runs. The bowling leaked runs all over the place and we didn’t have any options for a sixth bowler despite Rohit Sharma hinting at experimenting in the Netherlands game. In the final also, the bowlers did leak runs in the power play despite early wickets but Shami or Bumrah couldn’t get a magic spell and there wasn’t enough runs to defend. It didn’t help that Australia always bat so aggressively which puts so much additional pressure on the bowlers. When you have only 5 bowlers who bowl 10 overs each, options are limited and opponents start lining you up.

Take Shami out, we weren't really there. Shami made a difference as soon as he came in. Most of the one-sided victories can be attributed to Shami's presence in the team. Siraj was out of sorts, so was Bumrah. I agree that we could have experimented. Ashwin in place of SKY, in hindsight seems a good decision. However, I can imagine Rohit & Dravid trying to make sense of this on the day of the World Cup final.

Ashwin could have made a difference given that he was specifically brought in, in the 1st game to counter the threat from the Australians. In the final, Shami didnt strike gold, but then, the others should have stepped up, which didn't happen. Australia weren't aggressive. They were tentative and we could have pressurized them. Instead, we gave away easy singles, loose deliveries which kept the scorecard ticking. The intent to create pressure was missing.Either that or the fact that we used to bundling out oppositions for less! Bumrah's antics with the bails didn't help either- the writing on the wall that he had given up (despite not trying any variations)

One last thing - the batting was poor. I have time and again raised the question of Vikram Rathour and his role- this is where he needs to be scrutinzed. Why aren't our batsmen able to crack the code on difficult wickets?

 

[harishankar]

While Dhoni did win us an ICC trophy- I have always felt his captaincy was predictable towards the end. Post 2011, the ODI template was more on containing runs in the middle overs with the help of spinners and hope for wickets to fall. Whilst batting, it was to take the game as deep as possible. It worked for him on numerous occassions, but certainly wasn't fun to watch.

Rohit as a captain is one I rate far more than the previous guys (only limited overs). In my opinion, Rohit shouldn't bother himself with India's Test captaincy, as that game really isn't for him/ his style. His leadership seems to have spurred a number of guys and the performances we have seen have been very good. Rarely saw that in the Kohli era tbh. Rohit and Ganguly would be right on top when it comes to the Indian captain who made a difference ( I cant say much for Azhar- despite his record, he led us in 3 World Cups- but I was way too young then, to analyze his style of leadership)



Take Shami out, we weren't really there. Shami made a difference as soon as he came in. Most of the one-sided victories can be attributed to Shami's presence in the team. Siraj was out of sorts, so was Bumrah. I agree that we could have experimented. Ashwin in place of SKY, in hindsight seems a good decision. However, I can imagine Rohit & Dravid trying to make sense of this on the day of the World Cup final.

Ashwin could have made a difference given that he was specifically brought in, in the 1st game to counter the threat from the Australians. In the final, Shami didnt strike gold, but then, the others should have stepped up, which didn't happen. Australia weren't aggressive. They were tentative and we could have pressurized them. Instead, we gave away easy singles, loose deliveries which kept the scorecard ticking. The intent to create pressure was missing.Either that or the fact that we used to bundling out oppositions for less! Bumrah's antics with the bails didn't help either- the writing on the wall that he had given up (despite not trying any variations)

One last thing - the batting was poor. I have time and again raised the question of Vikram Rathour and his role- this is where he needs to be scrutinzed. Why aren't our batsmen able to crack the code on difficult wickets?

Dhoni was great and inspirational as captain in his early stint and during his winning streak. For India, his captaincy became somewhat predictable after 2014 but continues to be inspirational for CSK though.

The biggest thing about Dhoni was getting the most of his players. I remember the Indian fielding unit was also top notch under Dhoni and seems to have regressed. With some slow fielders and ageing players, this Indian team didn't set the world on fire with their fielding or catching.

I would say, the biggest drawback of the present team is that, if you go in with 5 bowlers, and don't have a batsman who can bowl, or a bowler who can bat, or a genuine all rounder you are thin on resources when somebody underperforms on a given day with bat or ball. Jadeja used to be a genuine all rounder, but of late his batting hasn't really inspired.

 

[wasteyouryouth]

India comes close to winning a World Cup but what they are really missing is a 42 year old who comes out of retirement once a year to cash a cheque.

 

[Bevab]

India comes close to winning a World Cup but what they are really missing is a 42 year old who comes out of retirement once a year to cash a cheque.

They miss his scriptwriters more than him.

 

[harishankar]

India comes close to winning a World Cup but what they are really missing is a 42 year old who comes out of retirement once a year to cash a cheque.

If you’re referring to me, I am merely analyzing what made Dhoni succeed at his peak. Not calling for his return.

A captain who won world championships in T20, as well as World Cup and Champions trophy surely had done something right.

 

[wasteyouryouth]

If you’re referring to me, I am merely analyzing what made Dhoni succeed at his peak. Not calling for his return.

A captain who won world championships in T20, as well as World Cup and Champions trophy surely had done something right.

No it was a general statement relating to that tweet I shared.

 

[harishankar]

No it was a general statement relating to that tweet I shared.

Gotcha. Some very sentimental nostalgic idiots out there. Why not bring back Kapil Dev while we’re at it?

 

[Bevab]

Dhoni stans are a special breed, the man has a cult around him here. I wouldn’t take any of them seriously.

 

[asprin]

Now that Dravid's tenure has come to an end, I hope he doesn't have it extended. If he is still up for it, should go back to his old responsibility of generating the player pool for the Indian team from U19s. I feel he is best suited for it.

From player's perspective, how long should Rohit continue? Or Ashwin for that matter. Kohli definitely has another round in him for now. Dhawan and Bhumi's ODI careers also seem to be done now. Wouldn't be a bad idea to have the Gaikwads and Jaiswals to become regulars along with the current crop of youngsters.