Indian Premier League - General Discussion

LiveLoveABD

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Wait. Wait. Wait. When did I devalue Dhoni or Raina's tri-color achievements? Are you daydreaming things or what?

There's a lot that I want to reply to this, but that last line makes me feel if it is even worth replying. I am thinking about taking a backseat here. I don't have to prove my passion for CSK, Dhoni and Chennai. I will be this person who criticizes the heck of the team and MS and yet next day, I am back watching/following them. But none of the words I posted in that post that you quoted, are wrong. They're my opinion based on the season that has panned out for CSK. And I am not alone. CSK fans on social media are all saying the same thing. Neutrals on social media are saying the same too (even more harsher than the fans, actually).

The criticism that they’ve played poorly this season is fair. To write them off after one poor season just because of their age is exactly the sort of typecast that the world is fighting.

How do you know that Raina would have had a bad season? You have clearly said so in that previous post. You made a remarkably silly comment on Harbhajan for absolutely no rhyme or reason. Just because he’s 40? Your post actually said he’s no Tahir when he’s achieved more in the sport and the league and is actually even younger than Tahir!

You can take whatever seat you prefer. I don’t give a toss. Your passion for CSK and India is well known. I was never questioning any of it and I’m nobody to do so. I took offence in the disrespect to the cricketers mentioned and the prophecies made. Leave it to the media, it sounds silly coming from you.

I will again repeat- Even if this dads army plays in March with Raina and Harbhajan back, do not count them out. It’s very convenient for those calling these guys oldies to now yap and scream. Try offering a wooden spoon, a title and a runner up position to any other franchise bar Mumbai in a 3 year cycle. They would lick your hands off. Even if this is the end, let the cricketers decide. They had said the same in 2018 post auction as well.
 

Bevab

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And the audacity of Dhoni to say in the post match show that "we didn't see as much of a spark in the youngsters". Where do they see these sparks? In the nets? Do they even have a process of watching domestic cricket intently to see who are the guys who have the potential to come up through the ladder? For a team that has made "experience" as the single buzz word, it hurts to hear someone like Dhoni take a U-turn and now say "we didn't see as much of a spark in the youngsters". Ruturaj Gaikwad is among the top leading scorers in Syed Mushtaq Ali Trophy). Ruturaj was used badly this IPL. Completely out of place and discarded after two failures. Sai Kishore is among the top bowlers in the same tournament. Jagadeesan punched way above his weight in the one chance he was given this IPL. And yet, the comment on "not much of a spark".

I'm extremely glad that Kris Srikkanth called him out on it in the Tamil comms. He was in the 'Dhoni can make no mistake' camp until now and it is refreshing to see someone finally criticize a clearly misguided plan. For those who are not aware, this is a rough translation of what he said:

I will not accept what Dhoni says. The way he keeps saying process and process is a fairytale. Your very process of selection is wrong. You say Jagadeesan the youngster does not have spark, does the scooter Jadhav (yes, that is his nickname in the local populace :p) have a spark? I will not accept this ridiculous story of process, the entire story of process has been repeated and the tournament is almost about to get over. What is the point in introducing the youngsters now and checking if they have a spark when Jagadeesan already did that? (Asks Sadagoppan Ramesh if Jagadeesan did not show spark and if Jadhav or Chawla showed any such spark who agrees with him and says that the intent and aggression that the former showed was missing in the latter) Karn Sharma gave away runs but at least took wickets, Chawla just waltzes in and bowls after the match gets over, I will not agree that Jadeja could not be used today (couldn't quite get what he says here). I agree that Dhoni is a great player and that I'm nowhere near him but I don't agree at all with these decisions.

As for what Dhoni said, I simply don't have words. He has essentially said that they did not train well and that is why they were not backed but now without the pressure of qualification, they will be given chances. This means, "alright this season is a write-off lads, whoever shows me that they can play well now after I've thrown you under the bus publicly after mismanaging you will get a chance next season eh?".
 

Bevab

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Try offering a wooden spoon, a title and a runner up position to any other franchise bar Mumbai in a 3 year cycle.

This is the only part of the two posts that you've made that I agree with, which is why I'm not heavily critical of this side when I could be. 2019 was already the season where cracks started to appear and the team got by with the brilliance of a few individuals and some brilliant strategizing plus Delhi's complete lack of experience costing them. On the other hand though, I gotta ask if you've watched Chennai actually bat in any of these games though? The lack of intent is very clearly visible which is the main issue for most fans. I don't mind if the team loses even badly, I hate it when they treat the match as an extended net session which is very clearly an instruction from the top as Dhoni's done the same in Indian colours too. The games in which they've lost might appear close on the scorecards but trust me when I say that Chennai was almost never close to clinching a victory in most of them. The games that they've played have simply not been entertaining, I'm just glad that there were no crowds because this side would have definitely been booed at some point in this season with fans present.

I really don't understand your obsession with Raina either, he had a below average IPL last season where he was only the team's fourth highest run-scorer and escaped blame because Rayudu and Jadhav happened to be even worse. Almost every other number three had a significantly better strike-rate than him and averaged mostly better (Ajinkya Rahane out of all people has a much superior strike-rate) and even accounting for Chepauk's pitch doctoring, his performance last season was really poor. Was he better in 2018? I would agree but most of his runs came at a slower than normal rate. The man you accuse of playing a selfish innings far often than not in Kohli was better than him in that season. You ask why people believe Raina would have had a bad season, I ask why you believe he would have played well in the first place after two seasons of underperforming relative to his salary? Some training montage videos on social media? Or generic PR quotes? I shall state my reasons as to why he would have fared poorly this season.

  • His last competitive game in any format was a year and a half ago. To put that into perspective, Dhoni's last competitive game prior to this IPL was two months later than his and the latter looks bereft of confidence, rusty and poor himself whenever he has played. And this was a Raina who had a torrid time in SMA Trophy in 2018/19, a below par IPL and absolutely no match practice not even accounting for the extended COVID break. You're believing his Mr. IPL tag too much, he has been nowhere near as good in the last two seasons.
  • You're really underselling the importance of mental space in a player's performance. Raina for whatever reason was not mentally 100% before the tournament's start to play. Could be the horrible news about his relatives (the timelines do not really match and there never was a concrete confirmation that it was the real reason) or it could just have been the psychological impact of a closed bubble and a pandemic badly managed in our country but I fully respect his decision to pull out which is why I've never ever mentioned his name as a reason for the team's poor performance. Josip Illicic, one of Atlanta's best players pulled out of his club's biggest match in their history and no one still knows why exactly he did it apart from vague speculation about it being the impact of the pandemic.
  • I don't buy that his absence has caused huge issues either, Hyderabad are not completely down and out in the absence of Bhuvi and Marsh are they? Delhi lost Pant for a week, Ishant, Mishra and despite it affecting their balance they're sitting comfortably at the top. I don't want to hear the 'these players are not comparable to Raina' excuse as Bhuvi and Pant are far more important to their respective sides than Raina was to CSK. The only reason people keep harping about Raina's absence is because unlike the other two franchises who ensured that they had other alternatives to step in by blooding them before, Chennai were too stubborn to try such things.
  • Harbhajan was nothing more than an extra spinner to be used in Chepauk last season, seven out of his eleven matches that he played were in Chepauk and two of the away games were in the knockout stages. I will agree that he was good last season but most of it was down to him being used exclusively in the spin friendly surface of Chennai, he was expensive in all games he played away. As for him making an impact this season, he would have never been picked and will not be picked up next season either given his dig at Dhoni on twitter with Irfan Pathan. It is very clear that he pulled out for not just personal reasons.
  • I'm not even going to address the lack of importance you place on age because tennis and cricket are vastly different sports and so is skydiving or whatever it is that Baumgartner did. Dhoni's issue is not fitness (although it is visibly clear that he is tired more often these days during games), it is the lack of technique he has and the decline of his hand-eye coordination that made up for it in the past. He simply cannot take on spinners or just chooses not to (Styris demonstrated this today in the Dugout very well). The rest of the team is visibly struggling with regards to ground fielding and strike rotation. It is no coincidence that teams can easily run twos against Chennai given how shoddy their fielding is.
  • And finally, the team management this season has been bizarre. Karn Sharma gets dropped after two games where Dhoni visibly has arguments with him on the field, Jadhav is dropped after repeated failures because he denies a single to Jadeja (what other reason could there be?) and is then suddenly brought back along with Chawla? What have they suddenly showed in training that has turned them into must picks ahead of players who have barely got a look in this season? Sam Curran was doing a decent job in the middle order and is all of a sudden supposed to be a pinch-hitter because Chennai's batsmen cannot be aggressive? His bowling has got progressively weaker along with Jadeja's and where are the likes of Ngidi and Tahir? The former had one bad game on a tiny ground and all of a sudden he is nowhere to be seen despite being an excellent death bowler for South Africa versus Australia and England and having a decent first game too. Last season's purple cap winner is not experienced enough to merit selection eh? I would have added Hazlewood in there too given how he was unceremoniously dropped after one decent game despite being misused but he did play today.
  • The age criticism also should be mentioned again because Chennai splurged nearly 7 crores on Chawla (just because he has experience of bowling on Chepauk pitches? :lol), refused to release Jadhav despite him looking poor last season, in the World Cup and in SMA Trophy 2019 and did not make a single bid for any of the upcoming talents other than Sai Kishore (which was because he was a local, let's be honest). Hyderabad, Rajasthan and Punjab picked up a raft of young talent this season cheaply for example.

I'm sorry but the rest of your post(s) read like the ones on other social media from a Dhoni fan who thinks the man can do no wrong. Nobody's calling him a bad captain even, all that they've mentioned is that it is maybe time for him to pass on the torch to others as age catches up with us all and he is only human at the end of the day. Expecting him to pull miracles is not fair and if 2008 Dhoni was captaining the 2020 version along with his bunch of mates, he would axe half of the lot starting with himself. I shall always respect Gauti for what he did in 2018, imagine him not resigning the captaincy at that point. Shaw would have never got the chance to seriously push a claim as the opener and Pant plus Iyer would have been carrying the team's workload being drifted all around the lineup. Instead, he resigned when he realised that the team needed fresh blood in the leadership group and that the tournament was done and Delhi have massively benefited from that ever since. Instead, it is commercial interests and player ties that is keeping a complacent playing XI in Chennai still going strong after repeated failures.
 

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This is the only part of the two posts that you've made that I agree with, which is why I'm not heavily critical of this side when I could be. 2019 was already the season where cracks started to appear and the team got by with the brilliance of a few individuals and some brilliant strategizing plus Delhi's complete lack of experience costing them. On the other hand though, I gotta ask if you've watched Chennai actually bat in any of these games though? The lack of intent is very clearly visible which is the main issue for most fans. I don't mind if the team loses even badly, I hate it when they treat the match as an extended net session which is very clearly an instruction from the top as Dhoni's done the same in Indian colours too. The games in which they've lost might appear close on the scorecards but trust me when I say that Chennai was almost never close to clinching a victory in most of them. The games that they've played have simply not been entertaining, I'm just glad that there were no crowds because this side would have definitely been booed at some point in this season with fans present.

I really don't understand your obsession with Raina either, he had a below average IPL last season where he was only the team's fourth highest run-scorer and escaped blame because Rayudu and Jadhav happened to be even worse. Almost every other number three had a significantly better strike-rate than him and averaged mostly better (Ajinkya Rahane out of all people has a much superior strike-rate) and even accounting for Chepauk's pitch doctoring, his performance last season was really poor. Was he better in 2018? I would agree but most of his runs came at a slower than normal rate. The man you accuse of playing a selfish innings far often than not in Kohli was better than him in that season. You ask why people believe Raina would have had a bad season, I ask why you believe he would have played well in the first place after two seasons of underperforming relative to his salary? Some training montage videos on social media? Or generic PR quotes? I shall state my reasons as to why he would have fared poorly this season.

  • His last competitive game in any format was a year and a half ago. To put that into perspective, Dhoni's last competitive game prior to this IPL was two months later than his and the latter looks bereft of confidence, rusty and poor himself whenever he has played. And this was a Raina who had a torrid time in SMA Trophy in 2018/19, a below par IPL and absolutely no match practice not even accounting for the extended COVID break. You're believing his Mr. IPL tag too much, he has been nowhere near as good in the last two seasons.
  • You're really underselling the importance of mental space in a player's performance. Raina for whatever reason was not mentally 100% before the tournament's start to play. Could be the horrible news about his relatives (the timelines do not really match and there never was a concrete confirmation that it was the real reason) or it could just have been the psychological impact of a closed bubble and a pandemic badly managed in our country but I fully respect his decision to pull out which is why I've never ever mentioned his name as a reason for the team's poor performance. Josip Illicic, one of Atlanta's best players pulled out of his club's biggest match in their history and no one still knows why exactly he did it apart from vague speculation about it being the impact of the pandemic.
  • I don't buy that his absence has caused huge issues either, Hyderabad are not completely down and out in the absence of Bhuvi and Marsh are they? Delhi lost Pant for a week, Ishant, Mishra and despite it affecting their balance they're sitting comfortably at the top. I don't want to hear the 'these players are not comparable to Raina' excuse as Bhuvi and Pant are far more important to their respective sides than Raina was to CSK. The only reason people keep harping about Raina's absence is because unlike the other two franchises who ensured that they had other alternatives to step in by blooding them before, Chennai were too stubborn to try such things.
  • Harbhajan was nothing more than an extra spinner to be used in Chepauk last season, seven out of his eleven matches that he played were in Chepauk and two of the away games were in the knockout stages. I will agree that he was good last season but most of it was down to him being used exclusively in the spin friendly surface of Chennai, he was expensive in all games he played away. As for him making an impact this season, he would have never been picked and will not be picked up next season either given his dig at Dhoni on twitter with Irfan Pathan. It is very clear that he pulled out for not just personal reasons.
  • I'm not even going to address the lack of importance you place on age because tennis and cricket are vastly different sports and so is skydiving or whatever it is that Baumgartner did. Dhoni's issue is not fitness (although it is visibly clear that he is tired more often these days during games), it is the lack of technique he has and the decline of his hand-eye coordination that made up for it in the past. He simply cannot take on spinners or just chooses not to (Styris demonstrated this today in the Dugout very well). The rest of the team is visibly struggling with regards to ground fielding and strike rotation. It is no coincidence that teams can easily run twos against Chennai given how shoddy their fielding is.
  • And finally, the team management this season has been bizarre. Karn Sharma gets dropped after two games where Dhoni visibly has arguments with him on the field, Jadhav is dropped after repeated failures because he denies a single to Jadeja (what other reason could there be?) and is then suddenly brought back along with Chawla? What have they suddenly showed in training that has turned them into must picks ahead of players who have barely got a look in this season? Sam Curran was doing a decent job in the middle order and is all of a sudden supposed to be a pinch-hitter because Chennai's batsmen cannot be aggressive? His bowling has got progressively weaker along with Jadeja's and where are the likes of Ngidi and Tahir? The former had one bad game on a tiny ground and all of a sudden he is nowhere to be seen despite being an excellent death bowler for South Africa versus Australia and England and having a decent first game too. Last season's purple cap winner is not experienced enough to merit selection eh? I would have added Hazlewood in there too given how he was unceremoniously dropped after one decent game despite being misused but he did play today.
  • The age criticism also should be mentioned again because Chennai splurged nearly 7 crores on Chawla (just because he has experience of bowling on Chepauk pitches? :lol), refused to release Jadhav despite him looking poor last season, in the World Cup and in SMA Trophy 2019 and did not make a single bid for any of the upcoming talents other than Sai Kishore (which was because he was a local, let's be honest). Hyderabad, Rajasthan and Punjab picked up a raft of young talent this season cheaply for example.

I'm sorry but the rest of your post(s) read like the ones on other social media from a Dhoni fan who thinks the man can do no wrong. Nobody's calling him a bad captain even, all that they've mentioned is that it is maybe time for him to pass on the torch to others as age catches up with us all and he is only human at the end of the day. Expecting him to pull miracles is not fair and if 2008 Dhoni was captaining the 2020 version along with his bunch of mates, he would axe half of the lot starting with himself. I shall always respect Gauti for what he did in 2018, imagine him not resigning the captaincy at that point. Shaw would have never got the chance to seriously push a claim as the opener and Pant plus Iyer would have been carrying the team's workload being drifted all around the lineup. Instead, he resigned when he realised that the team needed fresh blood in the leadership group and that the tournament was done and Delhi have massively benefited from that ever since. Instead, it is commercial interests and player ties that is keeping a complacent playing XI in Chennai still going strong after repeated failures.

Wow dude. That was some real SERIOUS analysis. Loved reading every bit of it.

Actually thinking back - I see @LiveLoveABD 's point about Dhoni being the only person who can decide when his time is up. But my counter for that is, in a country where we just refuse to treat our demi gods the same way we treat other mortals, fans will inevitably end up calling for "retirements" of these demi gods because they know that the selectors/management won't take the call and these fans see from the perspective of "what is good for the team". I was in the same boat when Sachin was playing and people kept asking for his retirement. Same with Dhoni also when he was playing in his last days for India. There is absolutely no disrespect to his achievements (both for India or for CSK) and the same applies for Raina too (the man has been a loyal servant for CSK and it pains me to hear of a strain in relationship between him and the CSK management). I, like you above, refuse to believe Raina would've solved our problems in this season. You've summarized it above perfectly.

The argument of "its just one bad season" sounds silly to me. These guys have been the most consistent side in the history of IPL and even though they've had seasons where they started off poorly like this current one, they've shown the fight even in those poor games and the buzz word "intent" was very much present. This time though, the frustration has bubbled over big time because of - "lack of intent", "the stubborn-ness to not re-evaluate their old process", "the lack of strategy when going into auctions", "poor selection almost every match" (they find new ways to get this wrong always). And these items are pretty scary when seen from a futuristic perspective. One bad season is totally fine, but if you give your fans a 'dark picture of how the future is going to be' through your actions and planning, that fear is going to make fans react in wild ways. The entire world is talking about how CSK will move forward post Dhoni (this talk started a year or so back itself) but when the cracks start to appear even while Dhoni is still around, its painful.

Ruturaj Gaikwad should have been backed. I thought he would given a good run after N Srinivasan's comments on him at the start of this season. Two failures in unfamiliar batting spots made them lose hope on him? The case of Jagadeesan perplexes people. His innings of 33 against RCB was actually good enough for him to be given a long rope in the second half of the tournament. Yet for some perplexing reasons, he was dropped in favor of a bowler. And then, that bowler was dropped in favor of..... KEDAR JADHAV! Who did not bat or bowl in the match and as expected today, he continued to struggle to get any aggressive shot going. And Sai Kishore was never given a chance. If it was because he didn't want two left arm spinners, well he didn't even use Jadeja the bowler properly in many games (one game Jadeja didn't get a bowl at all). To me, Jadeja can be treated as a specialist batsman and Sai Kishore could've been brought in. And even more perplexing is the purchase of Monu Kumar. I mean, what the heck is he even doing in the CSK setup? He comes from Jharkhand and was probably chosen by Dhoni. But in 3 seasons so far, he has not been given a SINGLE game. Similar thing with KM Asif. He got a game last season and even got a wicket or two (though his economy was ordinary). But again, discarded after just a game and never heard after that... If these youngsters are ordinary players who do not provide the required spark to inspire their selection, then the problem is even bigger where the data fed to the selection group that picks players at auctions is not reliable. Will CSK realize this after the current disaster of a season? I have a feeling they will think "in 3 years, we won a title, we ended runners up and we have had one bad season. Any other team would be delighted with those results"
 
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Kedar Jadhav at current stage, can't bat, can't field, can't bowl, still why is in the team, I can't understand... CSK moral full down this season, when DRS happen, it clearly show in Dhoni face too... No one want to listen what dhoni say, everyone think they can do better than him...
 

Pinch hitter

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After post match statement from dhoni, confirm that we will see lot of young players from next match onwards... It is good, because they can't qualify from here, may be according to 'RCB fan calculation method' there is a slim chance, but mostly they not play playoffs this season...
 

LiveLoveABD

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Valid points @Bevab. I will revert to this in some free space. But some quite justified arguments which even I agree with, but I do have a counter on quite a few. Just need to find some time and reply constructively.
 

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Umm, not sure if I like this over Korbo Lorbo Jeetbo, but when Korbo Lorbo is played in this one gave me goosebumps. With mega auction coming up, I am not sure the timing of this, could have waited another year. I can see why Nitish Rana is so distracted and hasnt played a single good game for us, too much biz and less cricket for him I guess.

Nevertheless, this is what IPL was when it started. Mumbai Indians had Hrithik dancing over Duniya hila denge hum, KXIP had Dhoom Punjabi, RR had Halla Bol, etc. We need that part of the IPL back, we need some innovations in IPL back like it had under Modi. I still remember watching KXIP vs KKR in a theatre with 5-8 more fans. There were cheerleaders in the theatre, like literally.
 

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Prithvi Shaw reminds me of Sehwag in the later stages of his career. If the ball is moving, Prithvi is going to struggle because he literally doesn't move his feet. He is an extremely talented individual with amazing hand-eye coordination and that is the reason he has been so successful and has achieved so much despite being so young. However, he has to get his feet moving especially if the ball is swinging. As I said, he is really young and has a lot of time to learn but this is one of the most glaring errors I can see in his batting currently.
 

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Umm, not sure if I like this over Korbo Lorbo Jeetbo, but when Korbo Lorbo is played in this one gave me goosebumps. With mega auction coming up, I am not sure the timing of this, could have waited another year. I can see why Nitish Rana is so distracted and hasnt played a single good game for us, too much biz and less cricket for him I guess.

Nevertheless, this is what IPL was when it started. Mumbai Indians had Hrithik dancing over Duniya hila denge hum, KXIP had Dhoom Punjabi, RR had Halla Bol, etc. We need that part of the IPL back, we need some innovations in IPL back like it had under Modi. I still remember watching KXIP vs KKR in a theatre with 5-8 more fans. There were cheerleaders in the theatre, like literally.
This looked rather plain infront of Korbo Lorbo Jeetbo
 

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2nd ball six from Shreyas and what a shot! Pure, pure, absolute pure timing.
 

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Looks like its not an easy wicket for new batsman. I am really impressed with Dhawan's fitness and determination. Delhi looking like 20 short but 3 more overs to go.
 

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Slap on SRH management’s face
 

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