Indian tour of South Africa, December-January 2010/11

What will the result of the Test series be?


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I think what went against us was the fact that the entire series preparation had been badly over-hyped. In such a case, the reactions were expected after a dismal first day.

The pitch definitely helped South Africa then, but it showcased that SAF bowlers could not drive home the advantage during the second innings. As MSD said, the toss was an important factor in the scheme of things.

Had the Africans batted first, India might have gained a slight advantage. Who knows - SAF would not have crumbled to 136. Maybe the SAF team would have scored 200 then.
 
I think bringing up this "inability" thing is a bit unfair, the wicket was moist and england, australia and south africa themselves have all had difficulties in the first innings in south africa.

no one brings up australia's "inability" to play the moving ball when south africa skittled them for 209 and then put on 650 at newlands. Or Englands when steyn and morkel put them out for 180 at the wanderers.

sure if india continue to fall apart for tiny scores throughout the series then yeah, there's a problem, but being put out for such a low score is not exactly a freakish thing for any team. It will never happen to south africa this series because there is a massive gulf in class between their pace attack and india's, but the saffers have fallen apart themselves quite a few times in the 1st innings of tests when against teams with decent pace attacks in the right conditions.

Well for one that 2009 Capetown test was on the flattest pitch of that series & AUS collapses to dumb batting. In the 1st two test of that series on the real greentops, AUS bats handled to conditions better than the Saffies.

Fact is Indian & all sub-continental batsman are more vulnerable to collapsing in seaming/bowler friendly conditions that AUS, SA, ENG batsmen.
 
Well for one that 2009 Capetown test was on the flattest pitch of that series & AUS collapses to dumb batting. In the 1st two test of that series on the real greentops, AUS bats handled to conditions better than the Saffies.

Fact is Indian & all sub-continental batsman are more vulnerable to collapsing in seaming/bowler friendly conditions that AUS, SA, ENG batsmen.

True, just like AUS,SA,ENG batsmen are more vulnerable to collapsing in spinning/Bowler friendly conditions.
 
Well for one that 2009 Capetown test was on the flattest pitch of that series & AUS collapses to dumb batting. In the 1st two test of that series on the real greentops, AUS bats handled to conditions better than the Saffies.

Fact is Indian & all sub-continental batsman are more vulnerable to collapsing in seaming/bowler friendly conditions that AUS, SA, ENG batsmen.

well, i was using south africa to keep things consistent but it's not exactly hard to find examples of aus collapsing in the face of good seam bowling on a green top.

Pakistan have rolled them out twice on seaming wickets in the first day in the last year, second time it was for 88 wasn't it? (they also did the same to england, I think england were all out for 120 something) I can't think of many times in recent years a team has been put in on a genuinely tricky, fast, moving wicket and they've coped admirally.

India, unlike australia, have also managed a series victory in England over the last 7 years, and in the test they won, put england in on a wet wicket and duly bowled them out for under 200.

if a seam bowler is getting good movement, it is extremely difficult for any team to cope. Mitch tore england apart in perth because, all of a sudden, he was getting swing. India are weak against bounce and short balls work better against them, I wouldn't rate them much below any other team when it comes to playing seam and swing though.
 
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StinkyBoHoon, you must not be aware of War's theory discrediting any Indian victory abroad because the team we faced has supposedly always been weakened. So obviously all those examples won't count. :rolleyes

Dare, I think everyone else has more than addressed your point.

Fact is, batsmen struggle on bowler-friendly pitches. That's how you can call a pitch bowler-friendly--because it is better for bowlers. Yes, the Indians will struggle more than guys who've grown up playing on those pitches. But our middle order has over 25,000 runs scored around the world (including the middle order). If they had such a fatal flaw in their game, it would've been exposed a long time ago.
 
True, just like AUS,SA,ENG batsmen are more vulnerable to collapsing in spinning/Bowler friendly conditions.

Indeed.

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well, i was using south africa to keep things consistent but it's not exactly hard to find examples of aus collapsing in the face of good seam bowling on a green top.

Pakistan have rolled them out twice on seaming wickets in the first day in the last year, second time it was for 88 wasn't it? (they also did the same to england, I think england were all out for 120 something) I can't think of many times in recent years a team has been put in on a genuinely tricky, fast, moving wicket and they've coped admirally.

India, unlike australia, have also managed a series victory in England over the last 7 years, and in the test they won, put england in on a wet wicket and duly bowled them out for under 200.

Yea agreed with all of this.

Only thing i will caution you i reminding you that India won in England when ENG where missed their main pace attack, where all out injured (Flintoff, Hoggard, Harmo). So INDs bats weren't tested 100% in english conditons the way Khan/RP Singh/Sreesanth fully tested the ENG bats.

if a seam bowler is getting good movement, it is extremely difficult for any team to cope. Mitch tore england apart in perth because, all of a sudden, he was getting swing. India are weak against bounce and short balls work better against them, I wouldn't rate them much below any other team when it comes to playing seam and swing though.

Ye basically.

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StinkyBoHoon, you must not be aware of War's theory discrediting any Indian victory abroad because the team we faced has supposedly always been weakened. So obviously all those examples won't count. :rolleyes

:lol. Good job horribly mischaracterising my position. SMH :facepalm

I dont nor have i ever discredited every IND victories oveseas. I as i mentioned above with regardless to the 2007 win in ENG was againts weakened ENG team - if ENG had their Ashes winning attack IND would not have won that series. So they got lucky.

If when IND toured ENG this year againts a full strenght attack Anderson/Broad/Finn/Tremlett/Swann & fail to win, it it will prove my point.

Fact is, batsmen struggle on bowler-friendly pitches. That's how you can call a pitch bowler-friendly--because it is better for bowlers. Yes, the Indians will struggle more than guys who've grown up playing on those pitches. But our middle order has over 25,000 runs scored around the world (including the middle order). If they had such a fatal flaw in their game, it would've been exposed a long time ago.

Except for Tendy & Laxman. They entire middle-order is extremely vulnerable (Gambhir, Sehwag, Raina, Dhoni) in bowler friendly or passed their peaks (Dravid who clearly not the "wall" that he was from 2002-2007 anymore).

So once bowler friendly tracks are present in Durban & Capetown as most expect. Steyn/Morkel will expose them similarly if not as dramatic as the 1st innings @ Centurion IMO.
 
if ENG had their Ashes winning attack IND would not have won that series. So they got lucky.

How can you say that!? Don't say just because you've watched them because that is just plain ridiculous. You just seem to find excuses for everything. Face it War, we do not live in a perfect world with perfect hypotheticals. We have to deal with the cards that we are dealt. It's easy to say that this and that would have happened, but there are so many factors to consider. What if I said that if Irfan Pathan was still well and firing and Sachin was at his peak, England would have stood no chance? It just doesn't work that way.
 
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Only thing i will caution you i reminding you that India won in England when ENG where missed their main pace attack, where all out injured (Flintoff, Hoggard, Harmo). So INDs bats weren't tested 100% in english conditons the way Khan/RP Singh/Sreesanth fully tested the ENG bats.

I dont nor have i ever discredited every IND victories oveseas. I as i mentioned above with regardless to the 2007 win in ENG was againts weakened ENG team - if ENG had their Ashes winning attack IND would not have won that series. So they got lucky.

If when IND toured ENG this year againts a full strenght attack Anderson/Broad/Finn/Tremlett/Swann & fail to win, it it will prove my point.

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Your point would only make some sense if the Ashes winning attack of England were consistently playing together as a unit after Ashes 2005. However, as we all know, that was not the case. The last time those guys played together was Ashes 2005. So, it was not as if the bowlers just got injured before the 2007 India series. Anderson and Sidebottom were still there and Tremlett was the 3rd seamer in that series. Hoggard has`nt played a lot of test cricket since then, neither has Freddie. So, I don`t think bring back, `If the Ashes attack was fit, India would`nt have won`. Its like the West Indies saying, `If our pace quartet of the 80s was fit, we would beat every side in the world`.

If you want to hold on to straws like that, India`s openers in that series were Wasim Jaffer and Dinesh Kaarthik, not Gautam Gambhir and Virender Sehwag. Tendulkar was going through the worst form of his life. Does that have a different ring to it? RP Singh was just making his mark on the international scene, so was Sreesanth. Zaheer was just back to the Indian side after a while. Your logic does not hold any ground, to be honest, simply because the Ashes 2005 bowling attack has`nt played together much after the 2005 Ashes for you to realistically wish they were playing in 2007 or now. That makes your assumption totally unrealistic.
 


I will be upset if the Indian bowlers can't restrict SA to 300 score.
 
^ It's not going to stay that way. The curator mentioned that he was going to trim it down a bit ( don't know how much though).
 
How can you say that!? Don't say just because you've watched them because that is just plain ridiculous. You just seem to find excuses for everything. Face it War, we do not live in a perfect world with perfect hypotheticals. We have to deal with the cards that we are dealt. It's easy to say that this and that would have happened, but there are so many factors to consider.

I say & have always said that with strong confidence, based on what happened in this test:

3rd Test: India v England at Mumbai, Mar 18-22, 2006 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

On a usually bowler frinedly Mumbai track 1 year earlier a basically full-strenght ENG pace attack (relatively close the Ashes quartet) owned what was India best available top order ATT. So i'm fairly confident if Hoggard/Flintoff had played in 2007 series in even more seamer friendly conditions, two master swing bowlers who where in peak form would have caused IND top order more problems that what Khan/RP Singh/Sreesanth did to ENG top order & IND would have never won that series.

What you people need to understand is the importance of injuries. In test history every single team has a few players who basically is the heartbeat of their side & if they just lose that one player it can cripple them. If South Africa lose Dale Steyn today, India's chances of winning or drawing this series in South Africa increases TREMENDOUSLY - thats how important Steyn is to SA.

Only all-time great cricket sides like Windies 76-95, AUS 95-2006/07 who have superb bench strenght can be expected to lose key players & still win major series.

For teams below that level like ENG in 2007, who dont have such great bench strenght losing basically your entire 1st choice pace attack againts that IND batting line-up they where always going to lose.



What if I said that if Irfan Pathan was still well and firing and Sachin was at his peak, England would have stood no chance? It just doesn't work that way.

Nah thats a totally different scenario to losing key players in peak form for a series to injuries.

Pathan by 2007 was already in career decline, you can't change that or wish anything different could have happened with him

Tendy in was going through his 2002-2007/08 mid career tennis-elbow affected days. In which the entire cricket world accepted that Tendy was passed his best.
 
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Your point would only make some sense if the Ashes winning attack of England were consistently playing together as a unit after Ashes 2005. However, as we all know, that was not the case. The last time those guys played together was Ashes 2005. So, it was not as if the bowlers just got injured before the 2007 India series. Anderson and Sidebottom were still there and Tremlett was the 3rd seamer in that series. Hoggard has`nt played a lot of test cricket since then, neither has Freddie. So, I don`t think bring back, `If the Ashes attack was fit, India would`nt have won`. Its like the West Indies saying, `If our pace quartet of the 80s was fit, we would beat every side in the world`.

ENGs best attack going into that 2007 series would have been Hoggard/Sidebottom/Flintoff/Harmison/Panesar.

Realisitcally of the 2005 Ashes attack only Jones would not have played anyway. The rest of them (although Flintoff was in & out) would have played. Hoggard & Harmison who went through their entire English careers never missing a series through injuries both coincidentally for the 1st & only times in their careers missed that series due to injury.

Tremlett wouldn't have been near the side nor Anderson who was just getting back into the test side & is nowhere comparable to the swing bowler he was back then to the one he is now quite obviously.

If you want to hold on to straws like that, India`s openers in that series were Wasim Jaffer and Dinesh Kaarthik, not Gautam Gambhir and Virender Sehwag. Tendulkar was going through the worst form of his life. Does that have a different ring to it? RP Singh was just making his mark on the international scene, so was Sreesanth. Zaheer was just back to the Indian side after a while. Your logic does not hold any ground, to be honest, simply because the Ashes 2005 bowling attack has`nt played together much after the 2005 Ashes for you to realistically wish they were playing in 2007 or now. That makes your assumption totally unrealistic.

Nothing i said i holding straws. The comparison you have made here to them is utter codswallop my friend.

Firslty Sehwag obviously didnt play in the 2007 series because he was dropped after a horrible 2006 in which every quality pace attack ***** him. Hoggard was the artchitect behind him averaging 19 for the series in India 2006. If IND didnt drop him for the 2006, Hoggard in career peak form in ENG conditions would have ***** Sehwag even more.

Plus im not sure how Gambhir comes into this. He was nowhere near the IND team until his recall vs SRI 2008.


So quite obviously your best opening pair on form (performances in SA 06/07)going into the 2007 tour to ENG was Jaffer/Karthik.


The current Sehwag/Gambhir partership touring ENG this summer however vs a quality ENG attack this time in what will likely be bowler friendly conditions. I'd certainly back Anderson/Swann & co to have more good days bowling to them than not.

On Tendy as i mentioned to Sharvi above. Tendy careers by 2007 had evolved from a early tennis elbow woes to a career decline of that 2002-2007/08 period before his recent revival. In which the world thought the Tendy of the 90s was gone forever.

Not sure what your point abt Zaheer & co is going. All i know that on tours to ENG, SA, AUS they bowled well as a unit during that 07/08 year. Unless your trying to tell you had better bowler available, that was obviously your best pace attack ATT.


So basically my point has always held water. INDs win in ENG 07 cannot be looked upon highly since they weren't tested againts ENG best unfortuntely. The only way they can prove that wins wasn't due to those lucky circumstances is to in 2011, win in ENG againts what will be a full-strenght ENG attack. Once ENG beats them next year, it will prove my point.
 
Dude, once you start to make predictions about what would've happened if XYZ were available you start to lose respect. Some of the things you've said above are laughable.

A team is as good as the players available, if the players are injured then the team just isn't good enough ! Shane Bond wasn't a great bowler because he kept getting injured. I wouldn't say he was a great bowler BUT he got injured, that's not how it works. If half your team was injured as you claim, then you need to and investigate why the team was so bloody unfit. Not that they were, imo, but that's besides the point. India beat England in 2007 fair and square. Arguing otherwise is childish.

If one were to use the same argument the Ashes win in 2005 doesn't count since McGrath got injured playing football. However, no one denies England their dues for that victory. One can say we don't know what would've happened if XYZ were there, but to claim that the team would definitely have been beaten...well, you're talking rubbish.
 
So basically my point has always held water. INDs win in ENG 07 cannot be looked upon highly since they weren't tested againts ENG best unfortuntely. The only way they can prove that wins wasn't due to those lucky circumstances is to in 2011, win in ENG againts what will be a full-strenght ENG attack. Once ENG beats them next year, it will prove my point.

ENG weren't facing McGrath in Ashes 2005, if he would have been there, Australia would have won 5-0.

That's how your theory works.

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Not sure what your point abt Zaheer & co is going. All i know that on tours to ENG, SA, AUS they bowled well as a unit during that 07/08 year. Unless your trying to tell you had better bowler available, that was obviously your best pace attack ATT.

That was obsviously ENG's best pace attack available at that time, because the others were injured and were not in the team and you just can't them. Zaheer had come after a long time in the team, Sree and RP were very new to INT. cricket particularly ENG's condition and test cricket. So that wasn't actually our best attack.
 

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