Indian tour of South Africa, December-January 2010/11

What will the result of the Test series be?


  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .
People just like to jump on the Indian team. Used to it by now

Aww diddums, you want a tissue? It might have something to do with the fact that India have only 1 international standard seamer in Zaheer Khan and the rest are just an embarassement. Plus, in recent tours the so called quality spin of Harbhajan Singh has looked incredibly average. Plus, India (thanks to the fixtures list, which wasn't influenced or anything like that *cough cough* :rolleyes) revolved around India playing very weak teams and/or bullying on flat tracks for the last few years. The argument of people moan about spinning tracks is redundant as I can't even remember the last time a home game for India was on a spinning track. And then people come on here and act as if they have a chance against South Africa and all hail the supposed number 1!!!!

That help?
 
Aww diddums, you want a tissue? It might have something to do with the fact that India have only 1 international standard seamer in Zaheer Khan and the rest are just an embarassement. Plus, in recent tours the so called quality spin of Harbhajan Singh has looked incredibly average. Plus, India (thanks to the fixtures list, which wasn't influenced or anything like that *cough cough* :rolleyes) revolved around India playing very weak teams and/or bullying on flat tracks for the last few years. The argument of people moan about spinning tracks is redundant as I can't even remember the last time a home game for India was on a spinning track. And then people come on here and act as if they have a chance against South Africa and all hail the supposed number 1!!!!

That help?
Look, when people present logical arguments backed up with evidence, no one argues. No one's saying India are the best team in the world. At worse people quote the fact is they are No.1 in the rankings. Now if you disagree with that go write a letter to the ICC, but don't have a go for quoting facts.

Most educated Indian fans recognize the weaknesses in our team. Yes, Harbhajan's not been bowling greatly, yes the seam attack besides Zaheer sucks, yes Suresh Raina has a hard time against the short ball, and yes the team isn't very athletic. No one's arguing with that.

Points of contention are around the strength of the batting line up. A lot of English, Aussie, SA fans are quick to jump on ONE innings collapse. ONE. If it keeps happening, yes we have a problem , but it's collapsed once right now. The batting line up has proved itself, and it isn't one that rolls over whenever the ball starts seaming/bouncing. Yeah they may have to get used to it, and the BCCI was stupid not to arrange a warm up match.

The Aussie side and English side have collapsed as much as, if not more, than the Indian team on seaming wickets.
 
Damn! this forum is getting more dirty,Ugly and Bitchy than Indian politics.

have to tune into Aaj Tak/India TV/IBN7 asap for some entertainment.
 
Aww diddums, you want a tissue? It might have something to do with the fact that India have only 1 international standard seamer in Zaheer Khan and the rest are just an embarassement. Plus, in recent tours the so called quality spin of Harbhajan Singh has looked incredibly average. Plus, India (thanks to the fixtures list, which wasn't influenced or anything like that *cough cough* :rolleyes) revolved around India playing very weak teams and/or bullying on flat tracks for the last few years. The argument of people moan about spinning tracks is redundant as I can't even remember the last time a home game for India was on a spinning track. And then people come on here and act as if they have a chance against South Africa and all hail the supposed number 1!!!!

That help?

Enough of that BS. People dont jump on India exactly because of those reasons mentioned above. There are other teams who are even worser, and yet are not hated/criticised this much after one performance or even two. Its because you guys are just not used to the kind of excitement that the Indian fans have when their team does well. You guys had a problem with our celebration after the T20 WC win. So next time when we crashed out, I still remember the fun you guys had at our expense. So people just want to rub it in when we fail. Also because our board has created this image of being a bully in the international cricket scene (even I am gutted by that, but that doesnt mean people have to pounce on the team) and so the other country fans take it up on the team for the board's way of functioning. India right now is a superpower in world cricket, and I know many dont like it to be that way.

Keep some of the tissues for yourself.:rolleyes
 
Aww diddums, you want a tissue? It might have something to do with the fact that India have only 1 international standard seamer in Zaheer Khan and the rest are just an embarassement. Plus, in recent tours the so called quality spin of Harbhajan Singh has looked incredibly average. Plus, India (thanks to the fixtures list, which wasn't influenced or anything like that *cough cough* :rolleyes) revolved around India playing very weak teams and/or bullying on flat tracks for the last few years. The argument of people moan about spinning tracks is redundant as I can't even remember the last time a home game for India was on a spinning track. And then people come on here and act as if they have a chance against South Africa and all hail the supposed number 1!!!!

That help?

I don't think Sri Lanka, Australia and South Africa are weak teams...

And if the tracks are flat (I'm not saying they aren't) shouldn't these apparently better teams beat India (I'm still not suggesting that India is #1)? They get the same conditions as India do and apparently there are no spinning tracks in India anymore so it's not as if India has some sort of home advantage.

As Adarsh said, this is just ONE innings collapse. It's as if all of you were waiting with bated breath for this to happen just so you could say "I told you so". Every team collapses from time to time as has already been said. Not just India.

I am not saying India is the number 1 team because with this bowling attack, I don't think it is, but there's no need to make a mountain of a molehill, especially when there's still 2 matches to be played. It's far too presumptuous at this stage.
 
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Look, when people present logical arguments backed up with evidence, no one argues. No one's saying India are the best team in the world. At worse people quote the fact is they are No.1 in the rankings. Now if you disagree with that go write a letter to the ICC, but don't have a go for quoting facts.

Well actually (and no I can't be arsed trawlling through CC there are plenty of threads/comments about India being Number 1, how good players are after one innings on a flat track is another example. Yes, they might not be the most intelligent Indian, but when enough of that sort of stuff get's mentioned it makes the Indian team a prime target.

LOL, at the second point. I can go and find bs facts on anything. Just because the way something is organised doesn't make it accurate and yet by claiming it is fact and then going on and on about it only makes the people claiming such fact look very stupid.

Points of contention are around the strength of the batting line up. A lot of English, Aussie, SA fans are quick to jump on ONE innings collapse. ONE. If it keeps happening, yes we have a problem , but it's collapsed once right now. The batting line up has proved itself, and it isn't one that rolls over whenever the ball starts seaming/bouncing. Yeah they may have to get used to it, and the BCCI was stupid not to arrange a warm up match.

TBF, within reason, the Indian batting line-up rarely gets tested on a bowler friendly wicket, i.e. in the first test, so yes, the first time in a long time they actually get a bat on a wicket this happens of course people are going to crop up pointing it out. Because of the way quite a few Indian members come across incredibly arrogantly on this forum (N.B. I have to say a few as some people here are so sensitive :rolleyes) it is always going to mean people give India a harsher deal when commenting on them. It's tough at the top and you attract a lot of criticism when you fail, people like Rohit need to man up and stop whinging when it happens. You say, that the batting line-up has proven itself when it is bowler friendly conditions, care to give an example from the last year or two? I think you will struggle due to the way fixtures have been planned in that either it was a total flat track or the opposition was weak, i.e. New Zealand.

Enough of that BS. People dont jump on India exactly because of those reasons mentioned above. There are other teams who are even worser, and yet are not hated/criticised this much after one performance or even two. Its because you guys are just not used to the kind of excitement that the Indian fans have when their team does well. You guys had a problem with our celebration after the T20 WC win. So next time when we crashed out, I still remember the fun you guys had at our expense. So people just want to rub it in when we fail. Also because our board has created this image of being a bully in the international cricket scene (even I am gutted by that, but that doesnt mean people have to pounce on the team) and so the other country fans take it up on the team for the board's way of functioning. India right now is a superpower in world cricket, and I know many dont like it to be that way.

Keep some of the tissues for yourself.:rolleyes

You are one of the over emotional guys I mentioned like Rohit in my above reply. The reasons teams like say New Zealand or West Indies don't get given a hard time, is because their fans don't rub it in everyone else's faces, which is why.....surprise surprise, when India bombed out of the 20/20 World Cup you saw bigger reactions to that on the forum, then when England won the 20/20 World Cup. Yes the BCCI is a totally obnoxious, poorly run corporation, and I (and I expect the majority of the people here) don't blame the fans for that, but it once again doesn't exactly help India's cricketing image.

I don't think Sri Lanka, Australia and South Africa are weak teams...

Yes, but where were you playing South Africa and Australia? In India, on flat tracks where of course India are going to dominate due to the agressive nature their batsmen play. That is why they got found out in the first innings of this test, because they are used to smashing big scores off roads. I'm not saying Australian and South African batsmen can't do that either, but Indian batsmen are certainly better at it.

And if the tracks are flat (I'm not saying they aren't) shouldn't these apparently better teams beat India (I'm still not suggesting that India is #1)? They get the same conditions as India do and apparently there are no spinning tracks in India anymore so it's not as if India has some sort of home advantage.

I pretty much answered this above in which I'm saying the Indian batsmen are more used to these pitches and therefore able to score runs faster of them, while the other teams bowlers, i.e. the like of Steyn struggle as there is no help for them whatsoever, so it doesn't matter if you have an Indian seam bowler lobbing them down or Steyn, you're still going to go for runs. That's why so many draws occur.

As Adarsh said, this is just ONE innings collapse. It's as if all of you were waiting with bated breath for this to happen just so you could say "I told you so". Every team collapses from time to time as has already been said. Not just India.

And like I said, because of the hype around India, it only takes 1 innings to set everything off. Jeez as an England fan an innings where we don't collapse is a good result as I'm naturally pessimistic when it comes to our sports team :p

I am not saying India is the number 1 team because with this bowling attack, I don't think it is, but there's no need to make a mountain of a molehill, especially when there's still 2 matches to be played. It's far too presumptuous at this stage.

Neither am I, I agree with you, it was mainly a reply to Rohit's over emotional post about how India always gets picked on (not that we've heard that before...)
 
Dude, once you start to make predictions about what would've happened if XYZ were available you start to lose respect. Some of the things you've said above are laughable.

Except im not making predictions based on my imaginition. As i showed above the evidence backs me up.

In the 2006 Mumbai test on a unsually pace bowler friendly Mumbai deck. Hoggard/Flintoff owned India's top 7, similarly to what Steyn/Morkel did in the 1st test recently.

So i've always been fairly confident that if they had played in the 2007 series where bowler friendly conditions was present. They would have caused similar havoc & India would have never won that series.


A team is as good as the players available, if the players are injured then the team just isn't good enough ! Shane Bond wasn't a great bowler because he kept getting injured. I wouldn't say he was a great bowler BUT he got injured, that's not how it works. If half your team was injured as you claim, then you need to and investigate why the team was so bloody unfit. Not that they were, imo, but that's besides the point. India beat England in 2007 fair and square. Arguing otherwise is childish.

Firslty of course IND beat ENG fair & square in 2007, thats not my point. I'm saying they didn't beat the best ENG team, so their win their cannot be hailed as if they conquered ENG.

This situation now is very very similar to IND win in ENG 1971 due to similar lucky circumstance (the weather in 71) enabling them to win 1-0, just like in 2007.

But when they toured ENG again in 1974, they where hammered 3-0, which basically proved that 1971 victory was lucky. Thats why i say if IND lose in ENG 2011, just like back in 1971, it will prove that 2007 victory was lucky.



Secondly i dont know how closely you where following the England test team during 2007. But after the 2005 Ashes win, between 2005-2009 Ashes NO TEAM in world cricket had the amount of unfortunate/weird injuries to key players that ENG had during those 4 years.

- Trescothick who was heading into the peak of his career suddenly developed his homesickness/brain problems. How many cricketers ever has injuries like that??.

- Vaughan knee's suddenly gave out after 2005, which crippled his batting (later in his career when he game back it caused him to develop a technical fault which caused him to get bowled alot). That messed him & ENG up

- Giles aka mr.dependable. Suddenly after his whole test & FC career developed some weird finger or knee injury (cant remember) & he was gone within a year. ALthough with the emergence of Panesar & Swann he probably would have lost his place to injury.

- As i mentioned above also Hoggard & Harmo during the 2007 for the 1st & ONLY times in their test careers both got injured for that series. If you wish you can check out their careers & you will see that was the only time that they ever missed a test for ENG due to injury, other times it was because they where dropped.

- We all know the situations with Jones & Flintoff. Dont need to explain that.

Those injuries is comparable to IND losing Dhoni, Sehwag, Khan, Tendulkar for extended periods. You would never recover.

So as you can see no investigation would have been neded. Since it was just a sudden influx of weird injuries that gripped the ENG side during that period, to a group of players who up to that time had gone through their entire careers never missing much if any games through injury.

If one were to use the same argument the Ashes win in 2005 doesn't count since McGrath got injured playing football. However, no one denies England their dues for that victory. One can say we don't know what would've happened if XYZ were there, but to claim that the team would definitely have been beaten...well, you're talking rubbish.


AkshayS said:
ENG weren't facing McGrath in Ashes 2005, if he would have been there, Australia would have won 5-0.

That's how your theory works.


This may surprise you, but I personally dont or have never had the opinion that if McGrath was fully fit for all 5 tests that AUS would have won the Ashes 05 actually.

I have always felt ENG may still have won or a drawn series. Just like IND 2001 where AUS batsmen where exposed technically to spin with AUS full-strenght attack playing. The same say ENGs batsmen exposed AUS batsmen to quality swing bowling in Ashes 05.

So thus even if McGrath was full fit throughout to support Warne, which would have made the series scores low scoring. The lack of consistent enough support from the rest of the attack may have on key occassion enabled ENG to score extra key runs, where as ENG quicks basically had no weak links & gave AUS bats nothing. That may have swung the series ENGs way still.


AkshayS said:
That was obsviously ENG's best pace attack available at that time, because the others were injured and were not in the team and you just can't them. Zaheer had come after a long time in the team, Sree and RP were very new to INT. cricket particularly ENG's condition and test cricket. So that wasn't actually our best attack.

Haha what?.

How could it have been ENG best attack at the time when its entire 1st choice attack was out injured.??:facepalm

So what if Zaheer had just come back in 2007 & Sree & RP Singh where new to ENG conditions. That was your best available pace attack for that series based on performances prior to the series in S Africa 06/07. Nobody was out injured like the case was with ENG.

So this is a terrible comparison.
 
Yes the BCCI is a totally obnoxious, poorly run corporation, and I (and I expect the majority of the people here) don't blame the fans for that, but it once again doesn't exactly help India's cricketing image.
I disagree. Poorly run corporation, are you serious! :facepalm
 
This may surprise you, but I personally dont or have never had the opinion that if McGrath was fully fit for all 5 tests that AUS would have won the Ashes 05 actually.

I have always felt ENG may still have won or a drawn series. Just like IND 2001 where AUS batsmen where exposed technically to spin with AUS full-strenght attack playing. The same say ENGs batsmen exposed AUS batsmen to quality swing bowling in Ashes 05.

So thus even if McGrath was full fit throughout to support Warne, which would have made the series scores low scoring. The lack of consistent enough support from the rest of the attack may have on key occassion enabled ENG to score extra key runs, where as ENG quicks basically had no weak links & gave AUS bats nothing. That may have swung the series ENGs way still.

You're presuming, that this could have happened if he or she would have been in the team or that kinda stuff.
About the McGrath case, I felt that Australia would have clean swept England in Ashes 09 had Mcgrath been there which is contradicting your fact of a series win or draw. Now presuming, under the leadership of Mcgrath, the rest of the attack might have fired for Australia. That way England was going to lose the test.

And remember, it's not my theory, it's yours which I don't agree to. Infact, I don't agree to 90% of your stuff.


Haha what?.

How could it have been ENG best attack at the time when its entire 1st choice attack was out injured.??
So what if Zaheer had just come back in 2007 & Sree & RP Singh where new to ENG conditions. That was your best available pace attack for that series based on performances prior to the series in S Africa 06/07. Nobody was out injured like the case was with ENG.

So this is a terrible comparison.

Yet again, you're counting the injured players, when they were unavailable, how are they supposed to play in the team. The selectors picked the best out of the rest.
And how tweaking the entire 1st choice bowlers of a team are injured at once?? That raises the question of team's fitness.
 
You're presuming, that this could have happened if he or she would have been in the team or that kinda stuff.
About the McGrath case, I felt that Australia would have clean swept England in Ashes 09 had Mcgrath been there which is contradicting your fact of a series win or draw. Now presuming, under the leadership of Mcgrath, the rest of the attack might have fired for Australia. That way England was going to lose the test.

And remember, it's not my theory, it's yours which I don't agree to. Infact, I don't agree to 90% of your stuff.

Its a presumtion yes. But unlike your presumtion again im using past evidence (the 2001 AUS tour to IND), to back my theory in which similar circumstances occured as i explained above.


Yet again, you're counting the injured players, when they were unavailable, how are they supposed to play in the team. The selectors picked the best out of the rest.
And how flinging the entire 1st choice bowlers of a team are injured at once?? That raises the question of team's fitness.

I just explained above in the post the unsual cirucumstances that hit the ENG team with injuries during the 2005-2009 period. Kindly go & read above.

Also as i mentioned in the previous page:

quote said:
What you people need to understand is the importance of injuries. In test history every single team has a few players who basically is the heartbeat of their side & if they just lose that one player it can cripple them. If South Africa lose Dale Steyn today, India's chances of winning or drawing this series in South Africa increases TREMENDOUSLY - thats how important Steyn is to SA.

Only all-time great cricket sides like Windies 76-95, AUS 95-2006/07 who have superb bench strenght can be expected to lose key players & still win major series.

For teams below that level like ENG in 2007, who dont have such great bench strenght losing basically your entire 1st choice pace attack againts that IND batting line-up they where always going to lose
.
 
Yeah, the injuries thing you are saying.

Zaheer Khan never plays fully fit, he is always injured before nearly every important series. And other teams are hit by injuries too, not just England.
What you're saying that England might have won that India series if and only if England had their 1st choice bowlers. It's just like saying that if Zaheer was there at centurion then India would have won it but it wasn't like that, even with Zaheer's presence India could have barely managed to draw.
I don't agree to your theory of presumption, "that if that would've happened, the it would result into that".

And as I have said earlier, how come all their 1st choice bowlers were out injured at the same time, that was ████?

----------

For teams below that level like ENG in 2007, who dont have such great bench strenght losing basically your entire 1st choice pace attack againts that IND batting line-up they where always going to lose.

Zaheer getting injured leaving a ████ attack behind is the same condition too. And we are blaming it on Zaheer, he does not know how his body works and I'd say he's never fully fit. So, India were going to lose.
 
why is everyone trashing India for just losing a test match? it was just a test match and it was just the first test. yeah Indian batting crashed the first innings but that was because they were batting on a wet pitch. If SA had batted on that pitch, they would have been bundled out for less than 100 probably. there is probably there because Zaheer Khan wasn't there. so the crappy bowlers would probably concede 10 or 20 runs extra. When SA batted on day 2, the conditions were much better than day 1. what happened to the superb bowlers of SA when Sachin and Dhoni were batting and brought up a 172 run stand? where was that perfect pace at that time when SA were peeing in their pants looking the match going towards a draw? yeah SA got an edge over India because they are used to these conditions. how many times have they beaten India in India since Dhoni took over the captaincy? let me tell you "Zero". like Indian bowlers only produce spin on Indian and helpful pitches, same with SA bowlers. They only produce pace on fast pitches. look at the difference between the indian 1st innings score and the 2nd innings score. it was just a change in the confidence and it wasn't any superb bowling by the SA. Yeah they bowled well but it wasn't bad batting by the indians. the wet track did them in and they had lost confidence after couple of their wickets fell.
 
Hello, I've gone through few pages and I don't understand why the fearsome tweak are anti Indian cricket fans are doing all non sense!
Australia, when they were World's no. 1 team, got absolutely owned in their own continent.
Just for one batting collapse, I don't think India doesn't deserve to be no.1 test team. And even, the bowler friendly conditions, improper practice of Indian batting line up (not even a practice match) and strong pace attack of Proteas are the reasons for the first inning collapse. (Still, they proved themselves in the second innings.) Regarding bowling, everyone knows the fact that India has no top quality bowler excepting Zack and Bhajji (upto some extent).
 

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