Indian tour of South Africa, December-January 2010/11

[pcfan123]

Oh lord how I try, but they are everywhere, can't watch a cricket video on youtube without seeing hundreds of them.

 

[War]

Sehwag's unique ability to absolutely dominate on flat tracks, or even turning tracks, while able to pull off the odd stunning innings in helpful conditions is why I'd definitely have him in India's All-Time XI, opening alongside Gavaskar.

But in a World All-Time XI...Sehwag doesn't feature in the nominees for me.


I don't remember the last time Smith scored runs in helpful conditions either tbh. He averages 37.92 in Australia, 44.98 in RSA and 35.91 in India, compared to his 50ish career average. Although an average of 72.2 in England (with 1083 runs) is pretty impressive. He's cashed in a fair bit in WI too, good records in NZ and Bang too.

Probably will look into his career a bit more indepth later...

For an Indian ATXI his position for me his position gets lets safe the more i see him struggle in places in SA.

When you got middle order bats like Laxman & Viswanath who are much more complete bats than Sehwag, i'd be tempted to partner Vinoo Mankad with Gavaskar:

Gavaskar
Mankad
Dravid
Tendulkar
Hazare
Viswanath/Laxman
Engineer
Dev
Khan/Srinath
Prasanna
Gupte

Even if the match is played in India on a real road. Id still back in a hyptetical match-up the likes of Marshall, Hadlee, Lillee, McGrath, Imran, Wasim, Ambrose, Trueman to send Sehwag back early more often than not.

Also the last time Smith scores runs in bowler friendly conditions was this test:

4th Test: South Africa v England at Johannesburg, Jan 14-17, 2010 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

this is what tires me out. you've already decided.

he averages 59 in australia anyway. and there aren't many english batsmen with averages over 45 in england, his averaged 39.5 in his tour of england, which I guess may suit a an arguement that relies on pounding the "he averages below 40" line like it means something when its by half a run.

I don't think he is an all conditions player, he clearly doesn't cope as well on moving pitches as well as some batsmen. However, trying to write him off as a FTB goes far too far. He is beyond doubt one of the most gifted batsmen of his generation.

heck, even watching him in south africa, he's battered some of the bowlers beautifully, yeah, he probably should stop trying to cut bowlers of the quality of steyn for four, but have you seen his dismissals, they were stupid shots, not him cacking himself at the bowling.

my final point is, how many flat tracks have their actually been in Sri lanka? because I can recall about 4 in the last 3-4 years. It can be a seamers paradise, it's marked difference to england and south africa is it doesn't bounce nearly as much, which yeah, does help players with poor back foot games but the but the ball still moves a ton. You can get swing there that would be unimaginable in australia.

like some more astute watchers will note, the australian line up of the early 2000s which is above reproach in most people's eyes contains some of the worst cases of averages inflated by home performance anyway. It does annoy me that these things are conveniently ignored. you cannot say Hayden is not a FTB if sehwag is, hayden averages under 35 in all those countries you've listed as examples of difficult places to play good opening bowlers.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

this is what tires me out. you've already decided.

Pretty much why i just ignore his posts from now on. It's not a debate to him, to him he's stating his facts which aren't up to debate. Either we agree with him or we're wrong.

It takes ability to wallop bowling on flat tracks the way Sehwag has. If it didn't, everyone would have 50+ averages in India and Sri Lanka with strike rates above 80.


Hayden and Sehwag should be held as equals IMO, or Sehwag slightly better. Both very similar players. Technically deficient, but could dominate bowlers like no others, especially when conditions suited them. I hate people claiming Viru as a FTB but no Hayden. We had a whole thread on that ffs.

 

[stefan]

Pretty even at the moment, first session tomorrow will be crucial. We really need to start hanging onto those half chances. That miss vs gambhir could prove to be crucial.

 

[Adarsh]

Sehwag has singlehandedly won games for India when other batsmen have failed, and he has turned games around BECAUSE of his blistering strike rate where others have plodded around, and in doing so thrown away the initiative. If you haven't seen him do that then you cannot comment. The art of a debater is to give credit where it's due and I'm afraid some people are being very close minded.

He has succeeded on tracks where others have failed. He has , however, also failed in seaming conditions and he needs to change that if he wants to be remembered as a complete opener.

Anyway , yeah let's move on please. I'd say SA are on top at the moment. A wicket or two and India would be in big trouble. India would be quite pleased with a score of anything above 300 I feel.

 

[stefan]

Pretty much why i just ignore his posts from now on. It's not a debate to him, to him he's stating his facts which aren't up to debate. Either we agree with him or we're wrong.

It takes ability to wallop bowling on flat tracks the way Sehwag has. If it didn't, everyone would have 50+ averages in India and Sri Lanka with strike rates above 80.


Hayden and Sehwag should be held as equals IMO, or Sehwag slightly better. Both very similar players. Technically deficient, but could dominate bowlers like no others, especially when conditions suited them. I hate people claiming Viru as a FTB but no Hayden. We had a whole thread on that ffs.

Difference between hayden and sehwag is that haydos has occasionally gutsed it out and made runs when his normal strokeplay wasn't on. Never seen viru play such an innings. Its always been either his way worked or failing, he never adjusts to the conditions.

Maybe I am being unfair on viru since I haven't seen all of his test innings while I saw pretty much all of mat hayden's but that's the difference I notice between the two.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Yea, that's a fair point. Viru has had one or two knocks where he was patient and fought it out, but it's rare. It's just not his style.

 

[War]

this is what tires me out. you've already decided.

he averages 59 in australia anyway. and there aren't many english batsmen with averages over 45 in england, his averaged 39.5 in his tour of england, which I guess may suit a an arguement that relies on pounding the "he averages below 40" line like it means something when its by half a run.

I don't think he is an all conditions player, he clearly doesn't cope as well on moving pitches as well as some batsmen. However, trying to write him off as a FTB goes far too far. He is beyond doubt one of the most gifted batsmen of his generation.

heck, even watching him in south africa, he's battered some of the bowlers beautifully, yeah, he probably should stop trying to cut bowlers of the quality of steyn for four, but have you seen his dismissals, they were stupid shots, not him cacking himself at the bowling.

No i haven't already decided. If Sehwag scores hundreds in ENG, WI, AUS later this year he would have turned his career around & one can finally start speaking about him as one of the great openers. But he has had enough failures/struggles againts quality bowling worldwide in his 9 years of international cricket for me or anyone erudite cricket fan to consider has nothing more than a prestime FTB of his generation & not pick him in a IND ATXI for eg.

Mentioning him averaging 59 in AUS doesn't help your argument since he never played again either of the 2003/04 & 07/08 when McGrath/Warne where playing. Nor one bowler friendly AUS wickets.

In 03/04 he faced the weakest AUS bowling attack of the 95-2006/07 glory years on some flat SC type wickets. While the one test he played in 07/08 was on the Adelaide road.

Every AUS fan knows this & i'll quote of few prominent members from this site who have said the same thing before:

Robellina:

http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/1722130-post120.html

I agree, that 02 ton in Eng was good, but yes not a great attack. Cork just lobbed up pies and Sehwag punished him.

And yes it was funny how that SA attack got mauled in 01/02 out here after all the media hype, loved it!

And i agree how could anyone can call the 03/04 Aussie attack great, or even good, we got hammered. And that Adeliade ton was so slow, hardly the dominating Sehwag he is at home. Whereas Gilchrist scored many overseas tons in blistering time, he is the most destructive batsman of the last 10 years.

Sifter132:

Cricket Web - View Single Post - ESPNcricinfo World XI

I think Sehwag is the obvious one at present. His average in the first innings of a match is more than double what it is in the second (almost 70 in the 1st, about 30 in the 2nd). So he obviously struggles with a deteriorating wicket (or he just gets bored after more than 2-3 days ). He also hasn't scored many runs in tough venues eg. South Africa, England, New Zealand. Some will say 'yeah but he made runs in Australia'. True, but it was against a McWarne-less Australia in 03/04 flaying Brad Williams, Andy Bichel and Nathan Bracken around... and he played well in Adelaide in 2008 - but that's the easiest pitch to bat on in the country, and again McGrath and Warne were both retired by then.

Mentioning his record in ENG doesn't help either. None of Hoggard/Flintoff/Harmo where that good in 2002 - they where rather quite raw. Those three along with Simon Jones all peaked in that famous 2004 series win in the Caribbean en route to the 05 Ashes win. Plus Cork & White where passed their best.

Yea it was seaming conditions. But ENG wasted those early day 1 conditions, bowling the wrong lines to Sehwag (which was too wide feeding his strenght), when they should have been trying to bowl inswingers.

I dont know if you watched that Nottingham test my friend. But one thing i always reemember is Hoggard bowling in that test. When Hoggard & ENG went to IND 05/06 - Hoggard a more improved bowler (who had now learnt the art of reverse-swing) failed Sehwag in that series exposing his technical flaw to inswingers & he averaged just 19 for the series.

So basically he scored that Nottingham hundred vs Hoggard/Flintoff/Harmo when they where young/raw/not test quality. But failed againts them when they where more experienced.

The stupid shots he got out to in this series are the kid of shots that has been getting him runs on roads all over the world, such a style just isn't condusive to batting in bowler friendly conditions. Cricket is a mental game as well, Sehwag jus hasn't realised that he cant bat like that in SA & i have seen bat like this before when he has gotten seaming conditions. He doesn''t know how to curb his aggressive instinct.

He should take a leaf out of Mattt Hayden book & learn from how he revived his career after he was exposed in the 2005 Ashes. Hayden 'the bully" was never seen again after the 2005 Ashes, he went back to camn & cautious batting style againts quality new-ball bowling which he developed batting in the 90s on Brsibane greentops when sheild cricket in AUS was @ its peak & ressurected his career.

my final point is, how many flat tracks have their actually been in Sri lanka? because I can recall about 4 in the last 3-4 years. It can be a seamers paradise, it's marked difference to england and south africa is it doesn't bounce nearly as much, which yeah, does help players with poor back foot games but the but the ball still moves a ton. You can get swing there that would be unimaginable in australia.

Yes certainly in my lifetime of watching cricket Sri Lanka has tended to have more seaming SC pitches than IND & PAK by far, especially @ Kandy. But it still has its fair share of roads.

like some more astute watchers will note, the australian line up of the early 2000s which is above reproach in most people's eyes contains some of the worst cases of averages inflated by home performance anyway. It does annoy me that these things are conveniently ignored. you cannot say Hayden is not a FTB if sehwag is, hayden averages under 35 in all those countries you've listed as examples of difficult places to play good opening bowlers.

Haha what. Please list these AUS bats who have inflated averages @ home but have poor records overseas then due to their struggles againts quality quick bowling?

On Hayden well sure on the face value of the stats he doesn't have great record in ENG. But you have to understand how Hayden's career evolved in which by the end of it he pretty much proved he could play the moving ball.

In the 90s betwen 94-200 when Hayden played test he was a joke, regularly exposed by quality bowling.

Then after his superb 2001 series in IND. From Mumbai 2001-Cairns 2004 he was supreme FTB like what Sehwag was today dominating a set of joeke attacks on flat pitches (expect for Ashes 2001).

Then when he encountered Akhtar in 2004/05 & ENG in ashes 05 who exposed his technical faults. Then he revived his career with his Oval Hundreds, runs vs SA 05/06 (home & away), MCG 06/07, runs vs IND 07/08. By cutting out his "bully mode" style of batting by doing as i said above:

he went back to camn & cautious batting style againts quality new-ball bowling which he developed batting in the 90s on Brsibane greentops when sheild cricket in AUS was @ its peak & ressurected his career..

So i'm & always has been pretty confident, that version of Hayden would generally/always score runs againts quality new-ball bowling.

 

[sohum]

You cant use this series as a yardstick.

Guess what, I can and I just did. Booya!

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Difference between hayden and sehwag is that haydos has occasionally gutsed it out and made runs when his normal strokeplay wasn't on. Never seen viru play such an innings. Its always been either his way worked or failing, he never adjusts to the conditions.

Maybe I am being unfair on viru since I haven't seen all of his test innings while I saw pretty much all of mat hayden's but that's the difference I notice between the two.

4th Test: Australia v India at Adelaide, Jan 24-28, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

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Regarding everything else related to Sehwag, just dig up my posts way early in this thread. Just because it's been a few weeks doesn't mean everyone needs to suffer from short term memory loss and start blubbering away again.

 

[Adarsh]

Guess what, I can and I just did. Booya!

. 'Nuff said. I just wanted to say that Sehwag needs to prove himself against the seaming ball more often, and he is struggling against Steyn at the moment. It wasn't an open invitation to snatch the thread to make absurd claims about how every run he's scored has been due to injuries/luck/spot fixing/opponents feeling generous/blue moon appearing that morning etc etc. Let's move on because we're digressing again unnecessarily.

 

[sohum]

. 'Nuff said. Let's move on because we're digressing again unnecessarily.

Let's do it!

Tendulkar gonna be dismissed early on Day 3 and the rest of the team will be bundled for about 220-250ish. Still sticking by my 2-1 verdict in RSA's favour. If we'd bundled them out for about 275-300 then I would have thought an Indian victory possible.

 

[War]

Guess what, I can and I just did. Booya!

Oh ok. Well since you wish to take this approach, instead of actually trying to defend your inaccurate synopsis on Smith's career. I would have conclude you are copping out.

4th Test: Australia v India at Adelaide, Jan 24-28, 2008 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo


Regarding everything else related to Sehwag, just dig up my posts way early in this thread. Just because it's been a few weeks doesn't mean everyone needs to suffer from short term memory loss and start blubbering away again.

The adelaide innings was on a road & wasn't seaming around aywhere near as anything in this current series. So although the 151 was a brillaint match-saving effort, he just batted slower than usual on a flat pitch & his technique & temperament wasn't tested like how Steyn did in this series.

 

[sohum]

Oh ok. Well since you wish to take this approach, instead of actually trying to defend your inaccurate synopsis on Smith's career. I would have conclude you are copping out.

You can conclude whatever you wish to. I have no intention of "debating" with you.

 

[pcfan123]

does this mean you guys are broken up?