Limiting Piracy of Cricket Games

[angad]

I've read this statement a few times now... bothers me. Any folk here from India have a problem with this being a "matter of fact" statement? Or is it just a cultural thing, ie; "Well it happens, but what can I do about it?". You know pirating a game is theft, right?... You're basically going into Chief's house and taking his money.

Well let me just sum it up (as we are just going in circles now)....piracy is a fact in India but the culture is now changing. As for why there is piracy, how it started etc, well we have discussed about it a lot. Point is, majority of the people who buy pirated stuff are not even aware that it is stealing, as for them they are going the the store, paying the price asked and buying a disc (as opposed to people downloading the rips from the net). It is only people like us, who are on the net, reading all kinds of information, understanding how much investments are made for making these games understand the evils of piracy.

And why pinpoint just India over the issue of piracy?? Piracy is worldwide phenomenon. The very pirated disc that we get comes somewhere from the middle east (till very recent, we didnt even have the internet speed to download a dvdscr rip). Thousands of people worldwide are downloading pirated stuff over the internet, and they do it knowingly. The games/apps that get patched/cracked are uploaded and downloaded worldwide.

The reason why almost everyone here from India mentioned the fact about pricing and Day-1 availability of the game was because each one of us knows the reality here. As more and more games are affordable (according to the per-capita-income), as more and more games are available to us on Day-1, as more and more reputed stores are keeping these games on their shelves thus making them easily available, more and more people are now buying the original stuff. There is a direct co-relation there. How do you think this sudden change in culture has come into effect? It is definitely not because some distant firang wrote something on the internet about piracy.....definitely not. It is because people here want to buy the genuine stuff, provided it is available to them as easily as it is to others.

I had already posted in one of the threads about a forum that I am a part of (IndianVideoGamer | IVG is your source for video game news, reviews and previews with an unique Indian perspective). It consists of all gaming indians (as the name suggests ). It has a membership count of 12.5k members, all of whom are passionate about gaming and play and buy the original stuff. Considering the fact that gaming has just started to pick up in India, a lot of new members keep coming in as well. So, yes, the psyche is changing, but it will still take some time.

As for this particular game (AC13), frankly, it doesnt matter what strategy you use in the Indian market as you would anyways be selling the same number of units here because:

a) You are not a known brand here
b) You would certainly not promote the game well here.....so you still remain unknown
c) Your previous titles were not well acclaimed here. A lot of people still do not know about BLIC2009. However, they do know (and still play) Cricket 07 from EA.

The piracy culture here would surely continue to change here, however I sincerely do not feel that AC13 is the title to accelerate it. One thing I can assure you is that I will be buying the original console (ps3) version !

The only suggestion I can give to you (or to any other cricket game developer/publisher with limited resources) is that get into a partnership with a firm like Reliance (lol...sounded funny...as reportedly, they were the ones who acquired a 50% stake in codemasters ) or any such firm, and have them promote and sell the game here in India. This would enable you to test the market here while avoiding the additional costs/risks. Obviously you would need to convince them with your game and the potential revenue !!

 

[MattW]

And why pinpoint just India over the issue of piracy??

Because the argument is made that India is a huge untapped market for cricket video games - because of the general fanbase for cricket in the country, and that somehow the volume potential of India because of that is such that massive profits will flow if only the game was priced at a point where the mass market could afford it (100-200 Rs.), because they will pirate it otherwise.

If you try the pricing game, you have to gamble that volume will subsidise the investment - you have to manufacture the copies of the game before you can sell them - don't make enough and you can't sell the game even to people who would buy it legally - make too many and you've destroyed the already slim margins. Then, you have to hope that volume increases proportionally to cost reduction - so that the revenue from the purchases at the lower cost is higher than the amount of revenue from a higher cost game; otherwise people in the Western markets paying 10-20x the amount for the same game have to subsidise a loss making or marginal distribution in India.

There are probably two separate issues - whether legitimate gaming in general is a push for sales of a cricket game; or whether being a cricket game will push legal sales that other genres might not.

The former is an avenue best explored by the giants of the industry, Ubisoft, Rockstar, EA, etc - they can afford to subsidise in emerging markets because their company's existence doesn't depend on success in one region. With AC09, Codemasters were probably in a position to do so, especially as I think Zapak took on a lot of the risk in local publishing. If Codemasters numbers were good we probably would have seen IC2010 on PC so they could tap that market again. Companies with strong and tested IP are able to leverage volume in the way a smaller title can't.

The latter is an argument that is interesting to consider further - but probably requires 505Games to get an Indian face to the game, perhaps a different title - to be able to leverage cricket as a product over cricket video games - buy this thing because it is cricket, not because it is a video game; a message that is more or less that you should pay for 'cricket', even if you pirate 'games'.

I think both are very difficult paths.

 

[angad]

Because the argument is made that India is a huge untapped market for cricket video games - because of the general fanbase for cricket in the country, and that somehow the volume potential of India because of that is such that massive profits will flow if only the game was priced at a point where the mass market could afford it (100-200 Rs.), because they will pirate it otherwise.

a) Pricing is only one of the factors that can influence the market. 100-200 is not the pricing point anyone mentioned. The range mentioned was 500-1000. The lowest was 500, at which we have had games sell here and which we feel would 'really' make it feasible for gamers to buy. However, when there was discomfort with that price, we had pointed out that you can keep any price you want, but if it exceeds 1000, it then enters the 'very expensive' category for a video game here (before we move to the pricing for movie in multi-plexes again, let me clarify that I am talking about a majority of the general public. A small percentage of us do buy games even for 3000 for consoles).

b) There are a lot of cricket games available already. So its not as if people are deprived of a cricket game. So a game has to bring in something new for it to sell well (reason why move street cricket sold so well here). Its a different story for us hardcore gamers though who would buy any new cricket game in the market. But then, we are not the point of debate here, are we.....as we are anyways buying all these cricket games.

c) The younger generation is more interested in Football now. As for cricket, only T-20 and worldcups excites the nation now (apart from the odd India-Pakistan matches).

d) I sincerely doubt many people in India pirated any of the previous versions from codemasters (IC2009, IC2010). I have hardly seen anyone playing that game here. Almost everyone plays Cricket 2007, but IC2009/2010.....they are not even well known here. Infact I can bet that the maximum copies sold here were all console versions (which I guess were accredited to UK, as we get all our console games from there )

If you try the pricing game, you have to gamble that volume will subsidise the investment - you have to manufacture the copies of the game before you can sell them - don't make enough and you can't sell the game even to people who would buy it legally - make too many and you've destroyed the already slim margins. Then, you have to hope that volume increases proportionally to cost reduction - so that the revenue from the purchases at the lower cost is higher than the amount of revenue from a higher cost game; otherwise people in the Western markets paying 10-20x the amount for the same game have to subsidise a loss making or marginal distribution in India.

There are probably two separate issues - whether legitimate gaming in general is a push for sales of a cricket game; or whether being a cricket game will push legal sales that other genres might not.

The former is an avenue best explored by the giants of the industry, Ubisoft, Rockstar, EA, etc - they can afford to subsidise in emerging markets because their company's existence doesn't depend on success in one region. With AC09, Codemasters were probably in a position to do so, especially as I think Zapak took on a lot of the risk in local publishing. If Codemasters numbers were good we probably would have seen IC2010 on PC so they could tap that market again. Companies with strong and tested IP are able to leverage volume in the way a smaller title can't.

The latter is an argument that is interesting to consider further - but probably requires 505Games to get an Indian face to the game, perhaps a different title - to be able to leverage cricket as a product over cricket video games - buy this thing because it is cricket, not because it is a video game; a message that is more or less that you should pay for 'cricket', even if you pirate 'games'.

I think both are very difficult paths.

I agree with everything you said here!! Also, about Zapak....they themselves were a new brand at that time. I guess they were trying to promote themselves as much as AC09 in those days.

 

[Chief]

So a game has to bring in something new for it to sell well (reason why move street cricket sold so well here).

*FACT KLAXON* Did it?

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d) I sincerely doubt many people in India pirated any of the previous versions from Trine/codemasters (IC2009, IC2010). I have hardly seen anyone playing that game here. Almost everyone plays Cricket 2007, but IC2009/2010.....they are not even well known here.

So what we're maybe saying is that people will only pirate stuff with low system requirements?

 

[angad]

*FACT KLAXON* Did it?


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I dont have any numbers to go by for move street cricket. I can only judge it based on what the regional dealers had to say about it.

So what we're maybe saying is that people will only pirate stuff with low system requirements?

I dont know about that. Maybe.....maybe not. What my statement was suggesting was that people didnt even play that game here. And my thinking is that the more people play your game, the more people become the potential buyers of your brand. As I said before, Indian is still pretty young in the hardcore gaming world. The people who r just getting into gaming would not own the expensive hardware. They are still looking for games that would play on their pc.

 

[Biggs]

So what we're maybe saying is that people will only pirate stuff with low system requirements?

Cricket 07's longevity is proof enough of that! ...and "Street Cricket" (never heard of it) but googling it, it's only available on the PS2 (and PSP) so that would also go along with that 'lower spec' angle.

Point is, majority of the people who buy pirated stuff are not even aware that it is stealing, as for them they are going the the store, paying the price asked and buying a disc...

Sorry, I don't believe you. That's where you lost me. I've been to India many times, I've walked into shops that sell LEGITIMATE India Replica Shirts and people pay for them full price. I've then walked down the road to a market-stall where they're selling rip-off India shirts and people pay 1/10th (or less) of the price. You know EXACTLY what you're buying. You know EXACTLY who's selling it to you. I simply don't believe that people who purchase (or profit) from illegally-sourced games "Don't know the difference" without the internet.

That's quite honestly, laughable.

You only need to look a the location it's being sold, the price and/or the person and be able to judge if it's legit or not. Humans have an innate ability to judge this kinda thing. You know if what you're getting isn't the real thing, it's like saying in the 1400's you didn't know if "buying that rum from the dude with the eye patch and wooden leg" was legal or not, so you had to google "Mr Blackbeard" first!

 

[anveshs]

Incidentally, Cricket Revolution ticked a lot of the boxes on quite a few points mentioned thus far. I have no clue how well it's actually done though.

amid all the fuss here,what are your plans right now to limit piracy?Is the DRM or online key activation for online play too costly to implement?I know it affects people with out an internet connection,but if a risk has to be taken what do you think is the best shot?

 

[angad]

Cricket 07's longevity is proof enough of that! ...and "Street Cricket" (never heard of it) but googling it, it's only available on the PS2 (and PSP) so that would also go along with that 'lower spec' angle.



Sorry, I don't believe you. That's where you lost me. I've been to India many times, I've walked into shops that sell LEGITIMATE India Replica Shirts and people pay for them full price. I've then walked down the road to a market-stall where they're selling rip-off India shirts and people pay 1/10th (or less) of the price. You know EXACTLY what you're buying. You know EXACTLY who's selling it to you. I simply don't believe that people who purchase (or profit) from illegally-sourced games "Don't know the difference" without the internet.

That's quite honestly, laughable.

You only need to look a the location it's being sold, the price and/or the person and be able to judge if it's legit or not. Humans have an innate ability to judge this kinda thing. You know if what you're getting isn't the real thing, it's like saying in the 1400's you didn't know if "buying that rum from the dude with the eye patch and wooden leg" was legal or not, so you had to google "Mr Blackbeard" first!

You have been to India a lot and I have stayed here a lot!!! Firstly comparing a T-Shirt with a Game Disc??? Really???? Anyways.....yes people do know the t-shirts they are buying are fake ones, but they surely do not know its illegal (hence it wouldnt have been allowed....right???)!!! The fake t-shirts you are talking about are just normal prints with a bad bad quality of cloth. And people buying it are aware of that fact that it is an inferior product. They still do not know it is illegal (well infact I myself am not sure they are illegal)!!!

Coming back to the game discs.....if you leave aside the malls and the 'few' shops that keep these original games, the 'most' accessible shops for the young kids, i.e. the shops in the market around their house, keep only pirated games. So for them, they are just buying a game disc. In India, there are no curbs put in place by govt telling about piracy and all. Infact only last year some bollywood guys started talkign about it and even that has stopped now. So even if you find it laughable....it doesnt matter....as that is the truth here. You would have known more about it had you talked to the person who is buying the pirated stuff ! Cheers!

In India, you need to go to big shops to buy original games....while in almost every market there are atleast 2-3 stalls keeping pirated games and movies 'in the open'!!!!! For any sane kid, that would not seem wrong with this if this guy is selling it out in the 'open' with 2-3 police personnel moving around that same market, would it???? Had the govt taken stern steps to stop piracy and these police personnel removed such shops from all these markets, that kid would have understood that there is something wrong with it.

Il try and get a pic or two of such stalls for you.....you would be amazed (or maybe not....since you have been to India so many times and know so much about it )!!!

 

[Aravind.]

Many people who just upgraded their pc are buying pirated version of ashes 2009 for R.s 500,When original game is been sold at R.s 269 at flipkart Ashes: Cricket 2009 -: Flipkart.com

 

[Bevab]

Cricket 07's longevity is proof enough of that! ...and "Street Cricket" (never heard of it) but googling it, it's only available on the PS2 (and PSP) so that would also go along with that 'lower spec' angle.



Sorry, I don't believe you. That's where you lost me. I've been to India many times, I've walked into shops that sell LEGITIMATE India Replica Shirts and people pay for them full price. I've then walked down the road to a market-stall where they're selling rip-off India shirts and people pay 1/10th (or less) of the price. You know EXACTLY what you're buying. You know EXACTLY who's selling it to you. I simply don't believe that people who purchase (or profit) from illegally-sourced games "Don't know the difference" without the internet.

That's quite honestly, laughable.

You only need to look a the location it's being sold, the price and/or the person and be able to judge if it's legit or not. Humans have an innate ability to judge this kinda thing. You know if what you're getting isn't the real thing, it's like saying in the 1400's you didn't know if "buying that rum from the dude with the eye patch and wooden leg" was legal or not, so you had to google "Mr Blackbeard" first!

A T-shirt is a lot different unfortunately, and Angad clearly has replied well, so I'm not going to dwell on that.


The thing is, lack of awareness. And a peculiar craze for games really. Some of my friends have a big list of games, and they very rarely play a game consistently. And then there exists sharing, where in one gets a pirated game and all the others ask him for the same. A lot of people have asked me for my Fifa, and it did cause a fight once. That shows the unfortunate ignorance of the general public,

Lack of awareness is simply a real issue in India. Nearly none of the people I know knew the difference between a real and a pirated game. While there are people who pretend to have zero knowledge and secretly pirate games on a large-scale, there's a much bigger crowd that doesn't know about piracy or the extent to which they are committing a wrong doing. A small list of people know about piracy, but simpy don't have the good knowledge of how to get an original game and so they go on get a pirated game.

The one solution to this is to just increase the number of stores with an original game, apart from big malls, I've never seen a single shop sell an original game. And all of this general public of India don't go to malls, except on very special occasions, and when they do, they just see a game and think that this mall is cheating everybody.


I doubt whether guys like you would believe this, but this is the unfortunate truth.

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Many people who just upgraded their pc are buying pirated version of ashes 2009 for R.s 500,When original game is been sold at R.s 269 at flipkart Ashes: Cricket 2009 -: Flipkart.com

That just shows the incredible ignorance, plus the so called many people instead buy the same game for Rs.100 when they could've instead invested 200 more to buy an original one of the same thing.

 

[Biggs]

Firstly comparing a T-Shirt with a Game Disc??? Really????

You missed my point, completely.

yes people do know the t-shirts they are buying are fake ones, but they surely do not know its illegal (well infact I myself am not sure they are illegal)!!!

Yeah, Nike just sponsor India out of the goodness of their own heart, there's no multi-million dollar sponsorship merchandise deal going on! Haha. Don't be naive, it's about as illegal as it gets.

Coming back to the game discs.....if you leave aside the malls and the 'few' shops that keep these original games, the 'most' accessible shops for the young kids, i.e. the shops in the market around their house, keep only pirated games.

I know exactly how it works. I'm well traveled. The kids (and parents) know the product they are buying isn't legit... as do the sellers. Same thing happens in Thailand, Malaysia and all across the Middle East. The guys selling it tell you it's ripped/copied/pirated software. So you know it's not legit... nobody is passing this off as 'The Real Thing' - the issue is the environment around these people that seem to have absolutely no problem with this going on, which takes away money from the developers who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars making these games to (ultimately) make a living for them and their families.

You would have known more about it had you talked to the person who is buying the pirated stuff

I don't talk to thieves.

Il try and get a pic or two of such stalls for you.....you would be amazed (or maybe not....since you have been to India so many times and know so much about it )!!!

Cheers for the attitude... I don't need to see a picture, I've seen them first hand. Appreciate your viewpoint, but I simply don't buy any of it. It's an attitude that HAS to change, and it starts with every individual not making excuses but standing up and being accountable and telling people to buy the original product, supporting developers and educating everyone around you that pirated software is morally wrong.

 

[Gurjot95]

You missed my point, completely.



Yeah, Nike just sponsor India out of the goodness of their own heart, there's no multi-million dollar sponsorship merchandise deal going on! Haha. Don't be naive, it's about as illegal as it gets.



I know exactly how it works. I'm well traveled. The kids (and parents) know the product they are buying isn't legit... as do the sellers. Same thing happens in Thailand, Malaysia and all across the Middle East. The guys selling it tell you it's ripped/copied/pirated software. So you know it's not legit... nobody is passing this off as 'The Real Thing' - the issue is the environment around these people that seem to have absolutely no problem with this going on, which takes away money from the developers who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars making these games to (ultimately) make a living for them and their families.



I don't talk to thieves.



Cheers for the attitude... I don't need to see a picture, I've seen them first hand. Appreciate your viewpoint, but I simply don't buy any of it. It's an attitude that HAS to change, and it starts with every individual not making excuses but standing up and being accountable and telling people to buy the original product, supporting developers and educating everyone around you that pirated software is morally wrong.

I don't think you're are getting this. People are NOT aware of legit game copies. They go to shop intending to buy games they desire not aware of whether the copies available there are legal or not because I myself have gone into various shops selling original music/movies DVD but with pirated game copies. So the general mindset of anyone going into that shop will be that those copies must be legal because of availability of other legal media. The fact that most of people don't even know the general price of original games available here doesn't help and hence they can't understand the difference between those two copies. I for one is well assured of these situations because I myself was involved about lack of knowledge for general prices and legal/illegal before I got access to internet.

Here let me give you an example, I have seen DVD's of Cricket 07 patches available on market such as IPL Vs ICL patch, Cricket Legends patch whom I had big contribution in these. Shop sell these patches for 50-100 Rs labelling it as Cricket 08-09. Some of my friends who have bought these patches (or games as they think) wanted me to buy the same for the things which I have created for FREE. I have tried everything to convince them that these are not new games but a patch created by me with the help of others on internet and are available for free. But they just won't believe me. So the main problem is lack of knowledge among people. They don't know how to differentiate between legal and illegal for games in particular.

 

[puddleduck]

You need to get new friends, your current one's sound retarded.

 

[varunvgiri]

So what we're maybe saying is that people will only pirate stuff with low system requirements?

I think the point was that the game was not successful in India not because of piracy but due to general lack of interest. Which may / may not be attributed to marketing.

Any game titled 'Ashes' would struggle to capture interest in South Asia. And IC 2010 was largely perceived to be a minor update over the previous version.

 

[MattW]

Cricket 07's big selling point on release was having The Ashes - it was a main game mode. It even only has four licensed teams, NZ and SA over the confirmed ones in AC2013.

If Cricket 07 was a sales success, EA would have released a game after it.