Quarter Finals Stage

[War]

Pakistan don't have a good batting lineup. They were bowled out of under 200 against NZ and struggled to chase down 177 against AUS. They wouldn't be able to chase down a 290+ total to save their lives.

So if PAK batting-lineup isn't good. How would you term it then?.

PAK are known for their inconsistency, so one shouldn't take their defeat to NZ as a guide to anything. They beat AUS & SRI which im sure you will agree are stronger than NZ.

PAK have the perfect batting line-up for chasing down big totals, with the presence of Afridi & Razzaq down the order. Under-rate them at your own peril.

Why do you deduce just because they struggled to chase down 177 vs AUS that they cant chase down big targets? Do you not consider that just MAYBE the pitch was low & slow & just MAYBE AUS being a team that never gives up bowled well in defending that low score (especially Brett Lee)??

How many quality quicks exactly does Pakistan have? My eyes show me one. One. Riaz/Razzaq/Akhtar can be easily dealt with.

Riaz & Akhar are quality quicks quite clearly. Saying they can be easily dealt with is madness sir. Of course Akthar currently can be erratic, but once he get it right he is lethal - which is basically the story of his career.

While Riaz is superb exponent of reverse-swing which would make him a very hard bowler to deal with in the power-play & death overs.

Meh, I don't care if it's as good as Aus 03 or 07. It's irrelevant.

Its relevant because those AUS batting-lineups are examples of complete ODI top order with no weakness against no type of bowling. Something that the current IND Top 7 doesn't have.

The t20 cup? Really? The one we played without Sehwag, Tendulkar, and Kohli? That one?

Good thats my point, i said except for Tendy everyone else is vulnerable which is why that line-up struggled & went out of that cup

Sehwag wouldn't have made a difference IMO, since quality quick bowling in helpul conditions is his achilles heel throughout his career. Kohli looked good in SA recently no doubt vs the pace, but its early days to say whether he is good against pace or not, talk to me again after another 2 years or so.

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Weakest of the teams in the QF - seriously stoked that the match-ups worked out the way it did because Sri Lanka/Pakistan (on their day) are looking pretty dangerous.

I dont know....New Zealand still seems to me like a team without any game changer players (apart from Vettori/Mills). Even Ross Taylor who is good doesnt strike me as someone who would make the starting XI in any other team - not trying to be an ass, but in a World Cup you need players who are better than just decent and to me NZ have too many only decent players in their team.

Ok so for now thats that, will do the India/Pak/WIN once Ive had some sleep.

Nah man. Regardless of how average NZ have played. They are still better than ENG & WI.

If their very talented batting clicks, they could cause damage still. Although i reckon SA will be too much for them in the QFs.

 

[shravi]

Kohli looked good in SA recently no doubt vs the pace, but its early days to say whether he is good against pace or not, talk to me again after another 2 years or so.
.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know Wahab Riaz was a seasoned pro in International cricket now.

 

[STLIndian]

So if PAK batting-lineup isn't good. How would you term it then?.

PAK are known for their inconsistency, so one shouldn't take their defeat to NZ as a guide to anything. They beat AUS & SRI which im sure you will agree are stronger than NZ.

PAK have the perfect batting line-up for chasing down big totals, with the presence of Afridi & Razzaq down the order. Under-rate them at your own peril.

Why do you deduce just because they struggled to chase down 177 vs AUS that they cant chase down big targets? Do you not consider that just MAYBE the pitch was low & slow & just MAYBE AUS being a team that never gives up bowled well in defending that low score (especially Brett Lee)??

I'd say it's mediocre.

No, they don't have the perfect lineup to chase big totals. To do that you need a strong opening partnership (nope) and players who can play with a 100+ strike rate without taking risks (nope). Pinch hitters don't get it done.

I didn't deduce that they'd struggle chasing big totals b/c of the AUS match. It was obvious before the tournament that they would struggle, this was just one example of it.

Riaz & Akhar are quality quicks quite clearly. Saying they can be easily dealt with is madness sir. Of course Akthar currently can be erratic, but once he get it right he is lethal - which is basically the story of his career.

While Riaz is superb exponent of reverse-swing which would make him a very hard bowler to deal with in the power-play & death overs.

Quality quicks don't give up 30 runs in an over. Ever. Akhtar is not quality. Riaz is above average, but once again, he can be dealt with. Just because he has a Pakistan kit on doesn't mean he's quality.

Its relevant because those AUS batting-lineups are examples of complete ODI top order with no weakness against no type of bowling. Something that the current IND Top 7 doesn't have.

It's irrelevant because those AUS teams were juggernauts. I've never said this Indian team/batting was a juggernaut. I've simply said that the lineup is the best in the world ATM (which it is), and the team is better than Pakistan (which it is). I don't see where AUS factors in.

Good thats my point, i said except for Tendy everyone else is vulnerable which is why that line-up struggled & went out of that cup

Sehwag wouldn't have made a difference IMO, since quality quick bowling in helpul conditions is his achilles heel throughout his career. Kohli looked good in SA recently no doubt vs the pace, but its early days to say whether he is good against pace or not, talk to me again after another 2 years or so.

.

What's your "point"?

That we should judge the Indian batting lineup based on a freaking t20 tournament while missing 42% of their batting lineup?

 

[mohit_dude10]

PAK have the perfect batting line-up for chasing down big totals, with the presence of Afridi & Razzaq down the order. Under-rate them at your own peril.

Well aren't you contradicting yourself? you say Virat shouldn't be judged but you have already labelled Wahab to be one of the best bowlers around and you say Indian batting line up is weak against pace but the likes of Afridi and Razzaq are more dangerous?

 

[War]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know Wahab Riaz was a seasoned pro in International cricket now.

I never said he was. But given IND batsmen historical weakness against pace regardless of how well Kohli looked recent in SA - history tells me not to put my head on a block for any IND batsman ability against pace unless he has proven himself over a long period of time like the Tendy, Dravid, Laxman did.

While history over the last 40 years (except for Mohammad Sami & a few other no names quicks) that fast bowlers of decent standard regularly appear out of PAK from nowhere. So i have no reason, given Riaz his due props currently.

 

[STLIndian]

I never said he was. But given IND batsmen historical weakness against pace regardless of how well Kohli looked recent in SA - history tells me not to put my head on a block for any IND batsman ability against pace unless he has proven himself over a long period of time like the Tendy, Dravid, Laxman did.

While history over the last 40 years (except for Mohammad Sami & a few other no names quicks) that fast bowlers of decent standard regularly appear out of PAK from nowhere. So i have no reason, given Riaz his due props currently.

LMAO.

Kohli has proven much more than freaking Wahab Riaz. Kohli is already one of the best ODI batsmen in the world. Riaz hasn't done ████.

And I'm not even gonna comment on your sweeping generalizations because you've proven that you have a very clouded view of history. You're the kid who honestly thought SL could hold a candle to India when it came to their home records the last 20 years.

 

[War]

I'd say it's mediocre.

No, they don't have the perfect lineup to chase big totals. To do that you need a strong opening partnership (nope) and players who can play with a 100+ strike rate without taking risks (nope). Pinch hitters don't get it done.

No mediocre is disrespect to them IMO. England & Windies are mediocre batting line-ups. All PAK lack is high quality opening pair, their middle/lower-middle-order is as dangerous as any team in the world - thus they deserve to be considered as a "good" batting unit (but of course its one that is very unpredictable).

I didn't deduce that they'd struggle chasing big totals b/c of the AUS match. It was obvious before the tournament that they would struggle, this was just one example of it.

Did you see some of their chases in their recent ODI series vs S Africa & N Zealand before the WC?. Most notably that game vs S Africa when Razzaq won that game for them with his whirlwind century?

Although they lived up to their rep & blew hot & cold in various chases in those series, they are a very dangerous chasing side. Thus in a potential 1 off game vs IND, if all facets are thinking right (especially Afridi), they can chase down anything IMHO.

Quality quicks don't give up 30 runs in an over. Ever. Akhtar is not quality. Riaz is above average, but once again, he can be dealt with. Just because he has a Pakistan kit on doesn't mean he's quality.

. So wait are you saying just because you are great bowler you cannot be smashed around in an ODI for big overs

Off my head:

- In 2006/07 Mark Boucher hit Asif for 27 in one over

- When Anwar made his 194 in 1997. Im fairly sure he it Kumble for more than 25 in one over.

- I remember in the ODI in 1999. Razzaq tonked McGrath 19 in one over & McGrath had a spell of 5-0-61-0 at one point

- Even Murali i believe early in his career was smoked for 25+ over somewhere.

- Im sure you also haven't forgotten the smoking Jadeja gave Waqar Younis in the 1996 WC.

The list in ODI history is long since i have also seen all other top bowlers get smoked somewhere (not necessarily for 30 in 1 over of course). But it clearly happens.

So to say Akthar because of one tonking @ the back end of his career is not quality quick is ridiculous & a utter disrespect to great man.


Yea sure the IND bats can deal with Riaz. All im saying id back him to hold his own against the IND bats - especially if its a pace-bowler friendly wicket. Plus no, not jsut because he is PAKI im rating him as quality from the get go - the struggles of Mohammad Sami would tells why that shouldn't be done. But for reasons i have already stated has clearly proven he is international quality right now & is bowling well right now & will be a threat to IND batsmen if he plays them - right now.

It's irrelevant because those AUS teams were juggernauts. I've never said this Indian team/batting was a juggernaut. I've simply said that the lineup is the best in the world ATM (which it is), and the team is better than Pakistan (which it is). I don't see where AUS factors in.

I never questioned or debated whether IND batting isn't the best in the world right now or whether it isn't better than PAK batting line-up.

I am simply saying its a strong batting lineup depending on conditions & id back any strong pace attack, especially one that gets a chance to bowl on pacer friendly deck to expose IND historical weakness against pace.

What's your "point"?

That we should judge the Indian batting lineup based on a freaking t20 tournament while missing 42% of their batting lineup?

Not that we should them based on that cup. That cup was just a minor example of IND historical weakness against pace, that can always come back to bite them. The same way if AUS encounter a team with alot of quality spinners on a turner in this world cup (given that their glory days are over) their historical weakness vs quality spin will likely come back to bite them.

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LMAO.

Kohli has proven much more than freaking Wahab Riaz. Kohli is already one of the best ODI batsmen in the world. Riaz hasn't done ████.

Yes Kohli is one of best ODI batsmen on current form in ranking system that just takes a couple series into consideration when judging players. Come talk me in 2-3 years when/if he is still rated that highly (not that i'm saying that he cant be mind you).

Plus yes quite clearly Riaz has done (insert curse word) in international cricket to date. He has been a utter joke bowler.

And I'm not even gonna comment on your sweeping generalizations because you've proven that you have a very clouded view of history. You're the kid who honestly thought SL could hold a candle to India when it came to their home records the last 20 years.

Sweeping generalizations?. Ok so you are telling me its not proven historical fact that except for a short period over the last 20 years in which Tendy, Dravid, Laxman stepped up and proven themselves to be seasons great batsmen home & away. That Indian batsmen in general are not generally proven to be very vulnerable to high quality quick bowlers.

You are also telling me that since the Imran/Sarfraz era, Pakistan haven't been consistently producing quality quicks?.

Finally i'll answer you crap about IND & SRI home records in the thread just now, since clearly you have taken that to heart

 

[STLIndian]

No mediocre is disrespect to them IMO. England & Windies are mediocre batting line-ups. All PAK lack is high quality opening pair, their middle/lower-middle-order is as dangerous as any team in the world - thus they deserve to be considered as a "good" batting unit (but of course its one that is very unpredictable).

Did you see some of their chases in their recent ODI series vs S Africa & N Zealand before the WC?. Most notably that game vs S Africa when Razzaq won that game for them with his whirlwind century?

Although they lived up to their rep & blew hot & cold in various chases in those series, they are a very dangerous chasing side. Thus in a potential 1 off game vs IND, if all facets are thinking right (especially Afridi), they can chase down anything IMHO.

In a one-off game, anything can happen. They could chase 450 too. In general however, they have a mediocre lineup that would struggle mightily chasing big totals. They have no one like Tendulkar/Sangakkara etc. who can be safe while also playing fast. They have safe players who can't accelerate (Younis) and players who can accelerate but can't play safe (Afridi).

I'd take IND, SA, and AUS's batting above theirs, and if ENG was at full strength (with KP), they'd be as good as Pakistan. I would also say SL is right at their level. That puts them somewhere between 4-6, and when there's only 8 real test nations playing cricket, that's mediocre.

. So wait are you saying just because you are great bowler you cannot be smashed around in an ODI for big overs

Off my head:

- In 2006/07 Mark Boucher hit Asif for 27 in one over

- When Anwar made his 194 in 1997. Im fairly sure he it Kumble for more than 25 in one over.

- I remember in the ODI in 1999. Razzaq tonked McGrath 19 in one over & McGrath had a spell of 5-0-61-0 at one point

- Even Murali i believe early in his career was smoked for 25+ over somewhere.

- Im sure you also haven't forgotten the smoking Jadeja gave Waqar Younis in the 1996 WC.

The list in ODI history is long since i have also seen all other top bowlers get smoked somewhere (not necessarily for 30 in 1 over of course). But it clearly happens.

So to say Akthar because of one tonking @ the back end of his career is not quality quick is ridiculous & a utter disrespect to great man.


Yea sure the IND bats can deal with Riaz. All im saying id back him to hold his own against the IND bats - especially if its a pace-bowler friendly wicket. Plus no, not jsut because he is PAKI im rating him as quality from the get go - the struggles of Mohammad Sami would tells why that shouldn't be done. But for reasons i have already stated has clearly proven he is international quality right now & is bowling well right now & will be a threat to IND batsmen if he plays them - right now.

You make a good point. I'll take back what I said about quality bowlers never having a bad over, but I still don't agree about Akhtar being quality. Yes, he's great when he's on, but he is just as likely to get whacked around the park (at this stage of his career). Yes, even great like McGrath got knocked around, but not as much as Akhtar can.

I never questioned or debated whether IND batting isn't the best in the world right now or whether it isn't better than PAK batting line-up.

I am simply saying its a strong batting lineup depending on conditions & id back any strong pace attack, especially one that gets a chance to bowl on pacer friendly deck to expose IND historical weakness against pace.

Not that we should them based on that cup. That cup was just a minor example of IND historical weakness against pace, that can always come back to bite them. The same way if AUS encounter a team with alot of quality spinners on a turner in this world cup (given that their glory days are over) their historical weakness vs quality spin will likely come back to bite them.

You keep saying "historically" like that matters. The current lineup is all that matters. The lineup right now doesn't have any players that are discernibly much weaker against pace (other than maybe Yusuf). As an example, take the two WC matches against England and SA.

Against Pace:
52.3 overs, 345 runs. 6.57 RPO

Against Spin:
43 overs, 265 runs. 6.16 RPO

 

[icyman]

This QF scenario is very much similar to 1996.

1996
Srl v Eng
Ind vPak [the then World Champs]
Win v Saf
Aus v Nzl

2011
Ind v Aus[the current World Champs]

PAK is better balanced than IND. How can a team with an excellent batting line-up - but weak bowling attack (India) be better than a team with a good batting line-up & a very good bowling attack (PAK)?.

Have to agree with you. However, I must point out that both teams are riding high on the success of one or two individuals which has been overlooked during the Group stages. The other teams- should they figure this out, these two teams will be in for a nice beating.

India- Sehwag and Tendulkar
Pakistan - Shahid Afridi

Having said, again I'd reiterate my point of Pakistan being the lear favorites in case of an India Pak encounter at Mohali

That IND top 7 isn't as strong as lets say AUS 2003 & 2007 WC winning top 7 batting line-up.

Disagree. This is a better line-up. That Aussies line up of 2003 and 2007 had two strong openers in Hayden and Gilchrist. Then came Ponting. Basically, thats where the match ended as the opposition could not bowl out the Aussies beyond that.

The current Indian line-up is better with the likes of Tendulkar, Sehwag , Kohli, Raina and Yuvraj.

Yes im surprised India haven't adopted a 3 spin strategy already like what SRI tried vs AUS earlier. Once they keep picking average quicks like Patel, Nehra & maybe Sreesanth, IMO they will face hearbreak soon.

Everyone is. Hope we do get back to using our spinners efficiently in the last group game.

 

[sami ullah khan]

So STLIndian you think Akhtar is mediocre bowler . It seems our mediocre bowlers is still better and faster than the best fast bowler India has ever produced. It is an insult to call Shoaib mediocre. Over his career, he has terrorized batsman with sheer pace and that is a feat no Indian fast bowler has ever achieved.

 

[Aoun13]

One bad over doesn't make a bowler mediocre. Even bowlers like Wasim, Saqlain and Murli went for plenty because it is part of game.

As a whole I don't want Shoaib against India because Shoaib have only two gears, he can destroy any batting lineup but he can be the most expensive bowler as well.
I guess the most important point which most of the people forget here is that India Pakistan match does not only depend upon team's batting or bowling skills but it also depend upon how well a player can play under immense pressure.
No matter how well is one team from the other but India Pakistan match always starts from and even level.

 

[STLIndian]

So STLIndian you think Akhtar is mediocre bowler . It seems our mediocre bowlers is still better and faster than the best fast bowler India has ever produced. It is an insult to call Shoaib mediocre. Over his career, he has terrorized batsman with sheer pace and that is a feat no Indian fast bowler has ever achieved.

Since Jan 1, 2009, his bowling average in ODIs is 39 and his economy is 5.4. At this stage of his career, he's absolutely mediocre.

I don't care what he's done in his career overall.

 

[icyman]

Are you freaking mad ?

Just on the basis of his recent performances how can you classify him as mediocre ? Go, apply the same logic to Tendulkar, he did not score against Bangladesh,Holland, Netherlands and West Indies. He is mediocre ???

What samiullahkhan says is perfect. Our combined bowling attacks over the years cannot match that of Pakistan's current one.

 

[STLIndian]

Are you freaking mad ?

Just on the basis of his recent performances how can you classify him as mediocre ? Go, apply the same logic to Tendulkar, he did not score against Bangladesh,Holland, Netherlands and West Indies. He is mediocre ???

What samiullahkhan says is perfect. Our combined bowling attacks over the years cannot match that of Pakistan's current one.

He's obviously great when he's on. But he's not 'on' as much as he used to be early in his career. In his last 7 matches, he's taken 6 wickets. He doesn't have a 4-wicket haul since 2007.

I'm not mad, I'm just looking at the facts and not the name on the back of the kit.

(And why the F does everyone have to point out India's bowling? How is that relevant in any way to Akhtar?)

Also, BTW, I'm talking about him being mediocre RIGHT NOW, not overall in his career.

 

[aditya123]

Shoaib might have been one of the fastest bowlers to have come out of Pakistan and used to terrorize batsmen in the late 90s and early 2000s but he is way past his prime now. He is definitely a very average international bowler now. He is nowhere near the terrorizing quick that he was in the past.

So, if India does not have a good attack, that makes Shoaib the best fast bowler currently, is it?