Shakib - the 5th best spinner in the world?

[ZoraxDoom]

I honestly can't remember the last time we played a test in either of those places. Vettori very rarely gets spin favorable conditions. He doesn't really need them anyway because he gets wicket on any type of pitch. He'd probably do more damage to the better sides with some help though. He's also juggling captaincy at the moment which he's still relatively new to. He's more an all-rounder than a spinner these days but he's still a better bowler in any form.

You can take out the wickets against Bangladesh and whatever, fact is is every side gets to play weaker teams. Shakib is currently playing Zimbabwe. Taking them out doesn't really make a difference because every player's average goes up after taking those side's out.

??

What happened to:

I'm bowing out of this argument.

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[King Pietersen]

Here goes the evidance: 2008 season which is the most recent fully complete season. Vettori's record speaks for itself
Cricket Records | Records | 2008 | Test matches | Most wickets | Cricinfo.com

54 wickets at 26. Nothing wrong with his bowling. He's played 3 tests in 2009 hich isn't a big enough sample to count. So as I said we'll see how he goes against Sri Lanka.

Again, overall stats look great, but delve abit deeper, and he had 2 series against Bangladesh, a very weak side, struggled against England (in NZ) and Australia and did well against another fairly weak side, West Indies. So really, he had 2 series of note in that year, the England one and the West Indies one, in which 8 of his 10 wickets fell to the weaker players in the side, getting the tail-enders, Ramdin, Chattergoon and Marshall out. He managed to do for Sarwan and Chanderpaul on 1 occassion though, so he didn't rely on purely gimme wickets, so I'd say we can count that as a good solid series for him. As far as I'm concerned, the 2 series skittling out Bangladesh are of little importance when discussing his worth as a truely World Class Test spinner.

I think Vettori's a handy Test all-rounder, he's a solid captain, a handy batsman and a decent enough bowler. But you'd have to say that if a genuinely good FC spinner came along, he wouldn't keep his place, as he's not producing the goods consistently enough to play as the lone and primary spinner in Test cricket. Jeetan Patel's the main threat to Vettori's place, and he has a FC average of 41.54, so you can see why they've stuck with Vettori. I take nothing away from him in the shorter forms of the game, as I think he's an excellent One Day bowler, but you'd struggle to justify calling him a world class Test spinner.

 

[irottev]

He's obviously world class in ODIs and T20's because he's arguably the best (or at least in the top 2) spin bowler in those formats. For tests I still think he's world class. If you don't then that's your call. I don't know who else is though. Murili gets a bunch of wickets against weak sides and the tail. That argument is getting tiring. Wickets are wickets. It's international cricket. Vettori single handedly won NZ that test series against Bangladesh. He was basically a 1 man team with bat and ball. If that's not world class I don't know what is. You watch Vettori bowl and it's good to watch. His accuracy is impressive, he constantly deceives the batsman in the air and with his arm ball.

Murili is obviously world class. Harbhajan is in my opinion. Who else is there? Mendis has been around 5 minutes. It would be a bit rich to call him world class. World class to me isn't about who's the hottest kid on the block in the last few months. It's about consistent performances and dependability over at least a few years. Shakib probably almost qualifies as world class. A few series on he might be looked at that way.

I'm also always of the belief that sub-continant spinners have the advantage. They play more games in helpful conditions. Look at the Aussie spinners, they all have skyhigh averages in FC cricket. Jeetan Patel is the same. 41 average is no indication of his ability.

Anyway I can;t help getting involved in this if you're going to quote my posts. I'm not staying silent.

 

[King Pietersen]

That's the thing, I don't think there are many World Class spin bowlers in Test cricket anymore. Murali is still world class, even with alot of wickets against weak sides, as his average against the better sides is still excellent, bar Australia. His average doesn't jump into the high 30's if you take out a few wickets against Bangladesh, so he's a totally different class compared to Vettori. I consider Harbhajan to be the only other world class spin bowler currently playing Test cricket. There are guys with heaps of potential, like Ajmal, Ojha, Shakib and Mendis, but they're not world class yet. Vettori certainly isn't a world class Test bowler in my eyes, and a 1-man series against Bangladesh certainly doesn't prove otherwise.

 

[iridescentt]

In true honesty, the Hauricane is the 5th best spinner in the world.

 

[Howsie]

Again, overall stats look great, but delve abit deeper, and he had 2 series against Bangladesh, a very weak side, struggled against England (in NZ) and Australia and did well against another fairly weak side, West Indies. So really, he had 2 series of note in that year, the England one and the West Indies one, in which 8 of his 10 wickets fell to the weaker players in the side, getting the tail-enders, Ramdin, Chattergoon and Marshall out. He managed to do for Sarwan and Chanderpaul on 1 occassion though, so he didn't rely on purely gimme wickets, so I'd say we can count that as a good solid series for him. As far as I'm concerned, the 2 series skittling out Bangladesh are of little importance when discussing his worth as a truely World Class Test spinner.

I think Vettori's a handy Test all-rounder, he's a solid captain, a handy batsman and a decent enough bowler. But you'd have to say that if a genuinely good FC spinner came along, he wouldn't keep his place, as he's not producing the goods consistently enough to play as the lone and primary spinner in Test cricket. Jeetan Patel's the main threat to Vettori's place, and he has a FC average of 41.54, so you can see why they've stuck with Vettori. I take nothing away from him in the shorter forms of the game, as I think he's an excellent One Day bowler, but you'd struggle to justify calling him a world class Test spinner.

Since 2003 Vettori has averaged just a shade under 40 with the bat, 39.03. I'd say he's been one of the best all-rounders during that time. He's also averaged 33 with the ball during that time to.

And for the record, if Patel for some reason passed Vettori as our number one spinner in test cricket Vettori would just play as a proper all-rounder and bat at seven.

Howsie added 1 Minutes and 38 Seconds later...

That's the thing, I don't think there are many World Class spin bowlers in Test cricket anymore. Murali is still world class, even with alot of wickets against weak sides, as his average against the better sides is still excellent, bar Australia. His average doesn't jump into the high 30's if you take out a few wickets against Bangladesh, so he's a totally different class compared to Vettori. I consider Harbhajan to be the only other world class spin bowler currently playing Test cricket. There are guys with heaps of potential, like Ajmal, Ojha, Shakib and Mendis, but they're not world class yet. Vettori certainly isn't a world class Test bowler in my eyes, and a 1-man series against Bangladesh certainly doesn't prove otherwise.

Ajmal's 31 if you didn't know.

 

[King Pietersen]

So he is, thought he was much younger than that. He's still got a few years to prove himself to be world class though. He's got an excellent doosra, mixes his pace excellently, has very good control and he turns it. If he has a couple of really good years in Test cricket then he could definitely be regarded as world class, I've been very impressed with him.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

His average doesn't jump into the high 30's if you take out a few wickets against Bangladesh,

a minor point but his average is actually still better than warnes without the bangladesh and zimbabwe wickets.