Shakib - the 5th best spinner in the world?

[StinkyBoHoon]

I was merely saying that comparing their stats against other nations is rather pointless at this stage as Vettori has played 80 odd test matches, Shakib's played 14. Don't you think it's rather pointless to say he has a better record against South Africa when he's only played two games?

I wasn't meaning to compare stats, more performance. I guess when it's cricket you end up using stats to back performances up, but really I'd be happy enough just having anyone agree that shakib seemed to hold his own as a spinner against saffers where vettori did not. I think vettori's performances have slipped over the last year or two and he's bowling like a containing, inefectual bowler these days.

so I don't think you can just say off the cuff that vettori is the better spinner.

also I think the way people are arguing against this makes less sense than the way I am. I'm more exasperated by everyones inability to even contemplate something that they don't intially agree with.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

They are definitely making less sense than you, that's for sure.

 

[Howsie]

TBH I don't rate Vettori as a test bowler, I haven't for a while now. I think Shakib's a talented bowler, but I'm waiting for him to produce it for a longer period of time before saying anything. For all we know the South African's may not have seen that much of him and weren't ready for what he had. Vettori's been around for such a long time now, teams know how to prepare to face him.

Howsie added 1 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...

They are definitely making less sense than you, that's for sure.

Why, because people don't rate him as highly as you?

 

[ZoraxDoom]

No, because he's actually making sense and backing up his arguments instead of making wild statements.

 

[McLOVIN]

I think Shakib's a talented bowler, but I'm waiting for him to produce it for a longer period of time before saying anything. For all we know the South African's may not have seen that much of him and weren't ready for what he had. Vettori's been around for such a long time now, teams know how to prepare to face him.

and that takes us back to stinky() post...

well he's played more than swann and mendis and no one had any problems putting them above him as a player. you even vehemently argued that mendis should be above him the ODI rankings. well he hasn't played half as many matches as shakib so why the change of tune?

we are just going around in circle now.

so you are rating Mendis very high, even though he performed very well in short period of time. but you are saying Shakib performed well in short period of time, but you want to wait till he plays more matches? quote to quote: "I'm waiting for him to produce it for a longer period of time before saying anything." umm ok...

and also you are saying Shakib wasnt familiar with the opposition, so you really think Mendis was????? every 1 failed vs Mendis b/c no body faced any thing like that before. but now the batsman caught on. and look at his performeces now? have you see him play recently?

so now you know why you are making less sense?

 

[Howsie]

No, because he's actually making sense and backing up his arguments instead of making wild statements.

Wild statements?

Yea. He's probably a better spinner than Shakib and even Vettori and Bhajji.

You said two pages ago that Kartik was a better spinner then Vettori and Harbajhan because your've seen him spin it a mile, so just how is my statement wild when I'm actually using stats for most of my arguments and not just saying "because I've seen him"

so you are rating Mendis very high, even though he performed very well in short period of time. but you are saying Shakib performed well in short period of time, but you want to wait till he plays more matches? quote to quote: "I'm waiting for him to produce it for a longer period of time before saying anything." umm ok...

and also you are saying Shakib wasnt familiar with the opposition, so you really think Mendis was????? every 1 failed vs Mendis b/c no body faced any thing like that before. but now the batsman caught on. and look at his performeces now? have you see him play recently?

so now you know why you are making less sense?

Hahaha, maybe I wasn't making sense last night but this is what I was trying to say.

Shakib has played two test matches against South Africa and the West Indies and Stinky brought up the fact that Shakib's records are better then Vettori's against these two respective nations. I just thought it was a little unfair to judge Vettori's 10 years of playing SA (I don't know when he first played them, 2004 I think. But he's played 11 tests against them) against Shakib's two games.

if bowling less overs against a weaker team is not as much of an advantage then we can include shakibs figures against the west indies, which are much better than vettoris. as are his figures against south africa.

the last two years shakib has better figures than vettori.

That's what I was trying to get at. It would be like me trying to make an argument that Ajantha Mendis could quite possibly be a better spinner then Shane Warne because of his record against India. I just don't find it fair comparing records of two players against a nation when one of the player's has only played one series against them.

I have no qualms about him bringing up the stat that Shakib has a better record then Vettori over the last two years in test cricket though.

Now for my Mendis case. He's taken something like 60 odd wickets in just over a year and he isn't even in the top five one day bowlers. Now people may say that he's began to get a little bit of stick but Vettori's in the top five and his record over the past year read's something like 11 wickets at 47. I was merely trying to say that Mendis should be in the top five, I don't think there is anything wrong with that statement.

 

[ZoraxDoom]

I backed up my statement with what I thought was a good enough argument. Stats aren't of much help when he has barely played. I've seen them all bowled and I think Kartik is world class, that's all.

And BoHoon (Geez that's a terrible nick name. Stinky maybe?) is just stating that we've ranked Mendis and Swann above Shakib despite them playing less, so rating Shakib above Vettori shouldn't be a problem despite him playing less. The argument that Vettori has played more shouldn't hold because by that way Shakib has played more than Swann and Mendis and thus should be held higher.

 

[Howsie]

Stinky brought up the fact that Shakib has a better record against South Africa when compared with Vettori's. Since when is it fair to bring up stats when someone only played two test matches against a country. If I said I rated Mendis higher then Warne because of his record against India would you object to that?

 

[ZoraxDoom]

Stinky it is then.


And yea, you have a point there.

 

[irottev]

I'm bowing out of this argument. Too much stupidity. And you can't beat stupidity sometimes. Lets leave judgments until after Vettori actually plays some recent cricket shall we? You're never going to be able to fairly test players because they can't ever bowl in the same situation (I guess unless they're bowling either end and even then it's still only similar)

When Shakib achieved anywhere near what Vettori has in his career then i'll take notice. Until then Vettori is still bowling at a high standard so it stands.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

please, first of all I don't want to get all brutal, I think howsie you seem like a good, fair bloke. I wasn't trying to compare records as a crux of why shakib is better, I don't even want to say shakib is better than vettori, I'll come back to that though, I was trying to draw down their performances in as close to similar situations as possible. If "I say oh shakib has a better record than vettori." I kinda anticipate the "yeah he only got those wickets playing that rubbish windies side." response. How often are averages dismissed using these arguement? "he got all his runs off bangladesh.", "he's a flat track bully.", "he got all his wickets against bangladesh and zimbabwe." (that one is from the Slag Murali threads)

I was just trying to do a little more than say he's been playing better over the last 2 years by pulling out the most comparable parts of their performances. I do not even consider shakib to have "a record" against SA. I agree a couple of matches does not constitute a record.

My point is more that I feel that when a certain player comes from a certain unfashionable country, or in an unfashionable mould, people feel very comfortable just assuming who is the better player. Vaas was a victim of this, it's simply dismissed by people that sri lankan fast bowler could be amongst the best players of his era. I could easily see someone rating fast bowlers of this era simply putting brett Lee or harmison above him without a second thought.

So I was trying to draw attention to the fact that Vettori, though belonging to a more established test nation (and also some of the other players mentioned), does not automatically hold a superiority over a lowly, young, bangladesh spinner.

 

[RoboRocks]

TBH I don't rate Vettori as a test bowler, I haven't for a while now.

He has averaged 27 over the past year so he's not that bad. That and 33 with the bat, which adds up to a world class all-rounder.

Going on to Shakib. I think he's done superbly in all forms considering Bangladesh's status as a cricketing nation. If he had support with both bat and ball, then he could go to top of the tree of all rounders in both forms of the game. Bangladesh have found a very good talent in him.

 

[rockyrakster]

Shakib really deserves it he is the best Bangla player

 

[King Pietersen]

He has averaged 27 over the past year so he's not that bad. That and 33 with the bat, which adds up to a world class all-rounder.

Taking out the wickets against Bangladesh and his bowling average goes up to 35, but his batting also goes up to 35 as well. Averaged 39 and 52 against Australia and India as well. Vettori's bowling stats look ok on face value, but when you delve abit deeper into them, they definitely show him up in Test cricket. His overall bowling average with games against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe taken out goes upto 37, and if you take out the stats against the relatively weak Windies side as well for example, his average goes up even more, to 39.

You could claim that the reason for it is because he's bowling on seamer-friendly Kiwi tracks, but even when he's bowling in the subcontinent he's not done brilliantly, bar a few Tests in Sri Lanka. He has a very poor record in India and Pakistan. The only proper Test sides he's played well against are Sri Lanka and West Indies, and he's done ok in England, although his overall record against us is very average.

Vettori is a world class ODi and T20 bowler, but in the longer form of the game he just simply hasn't performed. He's still pretty economical, going at just under 3 an over, but his strike rate is 83 and he's not really shown much improvement in the past few years either. With his year by year averages in the last 5 years reading 56, 28, 67, 32 and 52. So he's had 2 fairly decent/good years, but the ones in between are just awful. He's certainly not a world class Test bowler.

 

[irottev]

He has a very poor record in India and Pakistan.

I honestly can't remember the last time we played a test in either of those places. Vettori very rarely gets spin favorable conditions. He doesn't really need them anyway because he gets wicket on any type of pitch. He'd probably do more damage to the better sides with some help though. He's also juggling captaincy at the moment which he's still relatively new to. He's more an all-rounder than a spinner these days but he's still a better bowler in any form.

You can take out the wickets against Bangladesh and whatever, fact is is every side gets to play weaker teams. Shakib is currently playing Zimbabwe. Taking them out doesn't really make a difference because every player's average goes up after taking those side's out.

Here goes the evidance: 2008 season which is the most recent fully complete season. Vettori's record speaks for itself
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine...wickets_career.html?class=1;id=2008;type=year

54 wickets at 26. Nothing wrong with his bowling. He's played 3 tests in 2009 hich isn't a big enough sample to count. However in saying that i'm not a fan of using average to determine who is better. It comes down to the time thing. Players have their ups and downs. Shakib is pretty new and he'll go through a lean trot. Vettori did during his career and it's the players who bounce back that are great. Wicket tally, situations, etc are big factors.

So as I said we'll see how he goes against Sri Lanka.