Sir Garfield Sobers's bowling ability - Opinions vs Stats

[Robelinda]

I think this forum has reached a new low. Sir Garfield Sobers people.

 

[sifter132]

One great thing about Sir Garry Sobers' bowling was that he used to bowl three types of deliveries with different actions so he was someone who could be used in all types of conditions.

Well that's what got Andrew Symonds selected in Test cricket Ooohh he's so versatile - medium pace AND spin - WOW. Yeah, shame he can't bowl either style well enough to make much difference.

I think this forum has reached a new low. Sir Garfield Sobers people.

So? He was a great player, but it's still possible to overrate a great player. When people talk about Sobers they get all ga-ga - ooohhh best player ever blah blah and yet poor Jacques Kallis has been almost as impressive (if not more, given his better bowling numbers) yet there is considered some massive gulf between them. Keith Miller batted higher than Sobers AND opened the bowling. Sure Keith's batting numbers weren't as good, but dear old Garry had 3 legends batting ahead of him to blunt the attack. Ever wonder why Sobers batted at #6 or lower for half his career? I have. If he was so awesome why wasn't he at 3 or 4 more often? He outlasted the 3Ws comfortably so it wasn't competition from them.

Anyway, I'm certainly not suggesting he wasn't great - Sobers was great. But there is plenty of blind worship that goes along with his name which I tend to filter out.

 

[Dare]

So? He was a great player, but it's still possible to overrate a great player. When people talk about Sobers they get all ga-ga - ooohhh best player ever blah blah and yet poor Jacques Kallis has been almost as impressive (if not more, given his better bowling numbers) yet there is considered some massive gulf between them. Keith Miller batted higher than Sobers AND opened the bowling. Sure Keith's batting numbers weren't as good, but dear old Garry had 3 legends batting ahead of him to blunt the attack. Ever wonder why Sobers batted at #6 or lower for half his career? I have. If he was so awesome why wasn't he at 3 or 4 more often? He outlasted the 3Ws comfortably so it wasn't competition from them.

Anyway, I'm certainly not suggesting he wasn't great - Sobers was great. But there is plenty of blind worship that goes along with his name which I tend to filter out.

What makes you think that it was Sobers decision to come in at #6 allot of the time. He clearly didn't mind coming in at #3,#4 and #5 because he scored runs there too.
Looking at the numbers Worrell came in at #3, Weekes at #4 and Walcott at #5, he was a new kid in the team and got dropped down the order but when required he stepped up and got the runs.
Why did he bat at #6 or lower because he wasn't even selected as a batsman and that was his proffered position I guess.

Keith miller spent more than half his career batting at #5 or lower and the majority of his runs came at that position. Coming in at #5 Sobers scored about 100 runs less then Miller at the same position in 15 less innings. Miller played just about half the innings Sobers did and Sobers also opened the bowling. Its clear that Miller was a better bowler but nowhere near when it came to batting.

Dare added 3 Minutes and 10 Seconds later...

Seeing him bowl in that video, how come we don't see Windies bowlers with that type of action anymore? A lot of the Windies greats had that helicopter whirl thing going. Don't see it at all today

Yea man looking at some clips of Wes Hall bowling, he had that windmill action and it was beautiful.

Dare added 17 Minutes and 51 Seconds later...

found a good video on Youtube, Empire of Cricket - West Indies. Some good footage, allot of stuff I haven't seen yet.

[youtube]

[/youtube]

 

[drainpipe32]

Why would you bother?

 

[Bublu Bhuyan]

I think some posters are missing the point. We all know that he is an all time great batsman, and along with that he also took 250 wickets which is sufficient to rank him as one of the best all rounders ever. With his exceptional batting career, he need not have an equally great bowling career alongside to lay his claim as one of the top all rounders.

The point however is that how can someone with an average of above 34 with the ball be described as 'a bowler of extra ordinary skill'? That's what baffles me. It would be like calling a batsman with an average of below 40 as a batsman of extra ordinary skill.

 

[TumTum]

I always thought Sobers had a decent bowling average but this has surprised me. :working

 

[Harishan]

Well the question is whether or not you think an all rounder who averages 30+ can be considered as a "great bowler" but there are a number factos to take into consideration before doing so. ie. the average has to be taken into account of the time period in which they were achieved. In saying this I don't think there have been any great bowlers who averaged over 30+ with the ball, but great cricketers definitely. Though take for example Shakib Al Hasan - if he was able to take 500+ wickets at an average just over 30 and Bangladesh emerge as a good test team then there's no way in the world you could say he wasn't a "great bowler".

And as Sir Garfield Sobers once mentioned "Great is word which is thrown about too frequently".

 

[angryangy]

how can someone with an average of above 34 with the ball be described as 'a bowler of extra ordinary skill'

It says nothing of being a bowler of extraordinary strike rate, just skill. How many other Test bowlers can you name that bowled not only pace and finger spin, but also wrist spin? I don't understand how it is anything but extraordinary skill.

 

[King Pietersen]

Genuine pace as well, not medium paced Collingwood-esque cutters, Sobers was capable of bowling spells of out and out fast bowling. Ask Dennis Lillee.

Sobers' bowling being compared to Andrew Symonds is frankly laughable too.

 

[War]

I think some posters are missing the point. We all know that he is an all time great batsman, and along with that he also took 250 wickets which is sufficient to rank him as one of the best all rounders ever. With his exceptional batting career, he need not have an equally great bowling career alongside to lay his claim as one of the top all rounders.

The point however is that how can someone with an average of above 34 with the ball be described as 'a bowler of extra ordinary skill'? That's what baffles me. It would be like calling a batsman with an average of below 40 as a batsman of extra ordinary skill.

I think its you that have misunderstood the point Richie Benaud said when he suggested Sobers was a bowler of "extra ordinary skill" my friend.

Benaud was clearly refering to the fact that at his peak as a bowler Sobers could bowl left-arm pace & generate wondering swing, left-arm off-spin & leg-spin of high quality. That is of extra-ordinary "physical" skill since nobody in test history could master 3 arts of bowling so effectively in tests.

But by showin respect to those "physical" skills Sobers had, that doesn't mean he was one of the greatest bowlers of all-time compared to the likes of Marshall, Lillee, Hadlee, Donald, Warne, Murali etc. The extra-ordinary skills these great bowlers had was/is their ability to bowl reverse-swing, big out & inswingers, work a batsman over mentally/technically etc (in the case of fast-bowlers). While for the spinners, their ability to bowl special deliveries (Doosra, flipper) like Murali's ball that bowled Butcher & Dhoni in 2002 & 2005 & Warne's deliveries to Gatting or Strauss in 1993 & 2005.


Plus Sobers @ his bowling peak beween Australia 1960 - England 1969 averaged 31
with the ball. 153 wickets in 44 tests. This could have been even better if his wickets in the Rest of World vs England series in 1970 was included as well.

 

[War]

Well that's what got Andrew Symonds selected in Test cricket Ooohh he's so versatile - medium pace AND spin - WOW. Yeah, shame he can't bowl either style well enough to make much difference.

Thats not true at all. At his bowling peak Sobers's left-arm pace was very dangerous with the new if he got the right conditions. Check out what he did:

- Birmingham 1963

- When in England 1966 opening the bowling

- the 1970 1st test of the ROW vs England series.

- Leeds 1969

The great Geoff Boycott in was troubled alot by Sobers swing with the new-ball.

Plus when the wicket was turning too his left-arm spin (which he used more often than he left-arm chinaman) could be dangerous:

- MCG 1961

- Brisbane 1968

- Adelaide 60/61

- Kolkatta 1966


I encourage you the read the cricinfo reports of all these tests.

So? He was a great player, but it's still possible to overrate a great player. When people talk about Sobers they get all ga-ga - ooohhh best player ever blah blah and yet poor Jacques Kallis has been almost as impressive (if not more, given his better bowling numbers) yet there is considered some massive gulf between them. Keith Miller batted higher than Sobers AND opened the bowling. Sure Keith's batting numbers weren't as good, but dear old Garry had 3 legends batting ahead of him to blunt the attack. Ever wonder why Sobers batted at #6 or lower for half his career? I have. If he was so awesome why wasn't he at 3 or 4 more often? He outlasted the 3Ws comfortably so it wasn't competition from them.


Anyway, I'm certainly not suggesting he wasn't great - Sobers was great. But there is plenty of blind worship that goes along with his name which I tend to filter out.

There is no blind worship my friend. Sobers is hands down the greatest all-rounder ever & Kallis can't compare to him in anyway.



Dont worry about the stats my friend, Kallis is great player but he is by no means comparable to Sobers as an "complete all-rounder".

A complete all-rounder meaning a player who at the players "all-rounder peak" could score a hundred & take 5-wicket hauls consistently.

Kallis hasn't taken a 5-wicket haul againts a quality test opposition since Trent Bridge 2003 vs ENG. Kallis is basically this decade has been a top-class batsmen who can contribute effective with the ball depending on conditions (mainly bowler friendly conditions - on flat decks his bowling is generally ineffective). Kallis never could put two together over a series. His bowling in test has always been that of a 5th bowler, especially since his began took off around 2003/04.


Sobers peak as complete all-rounder was between Australia 60/61 to ENG 1969 in tests. Once could include the Rest of World vs England matches in 1970 as well here.

In that period Sobers averaged 55 with the bat - 31 with the ball. Which included that tremendous all-round series vs ENG in 1966 where he scored 722 runs @ 103 & 20 wickets @ 27. Which is argubaly the greatest single series individual performance other than Bradman 974 runs in Ashes 1930. Kallis can only dream of having such a comparable series as an "all-rounder". Sobers bowling in this period unlike Kallis was good enough to part of 4-man attack along with Hall/Griffith/Gibbs too.

Kallis really even cant compare with Sir Gary as batsman either. Sobers is argubaly one of top 3 batsman of all time. Kallis can't make a top ten of the best batsmen in cricket history.

Thats stats dont tell the truth in Kallis vs Sobers. It makes it seem close - but Sobers is way ahead.




Since we are talking about "true" all-rounders here. Imran Khan also should be mentioned here. Between Lahore 1980 (when he scored his 1st test hundred) - Bridgetown 1988 (the last series in test when he was bowling 90 mph). He averaged 40 with the BAT - 17 with the ball with the ball. After WI 1988 when his bowling declined, then his batting took off even further which gives the myth as his cricinfo profile suggest that..."he averaged 50 with bat & 19 with the ball" as a all-rounder.

So really Sobers & Imran should be considered the best all-rounders ever - given that their peaks as all-rounders where the best ever. Sobers being the more batting orientated all-rounder - while Imran the bowling all-rounder.

 

[Dare]

Thats not true at all. At his bowling peak Sobers's left-arm pace was very dangerous with the new if he got the right conditions. Check out what he did:

- Birmingham 1963

- When he England 1966 opening the bowling &

- the 1970 1st test of the ROW vs England series.

- Leeds 1969

The great Geoff Boycott in was troubled alot by Sobers swing with the new-ball.

Plus when the wicket was turning too his left-arm spin (which he used more often than he left-arm chinaman) could be dangerous:

- MCG 1961

- Brisbane 1968

- Adelaide

- Kolkatta 1966


I encourage you the read the cricinfo reports of all these tests.

I think he was talking about Symonds when he said "Yeah, shame he can't bowl either style well enough to make much difference."

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

pure stats over a career are worthless with all-rounders, almost no one is a true all-rounder in the sense they'd be picked for either disicipline, and certainly not for their entire career, so you have to account for the fact that they were probably doing one thing when they were not really ar their best.

is kallis a better bowler than ntini right now? not at all, but he's still the one in the team because he's one of their best batsmen.

imran khan suffers similarly, it was not until the 80s he was a proper batsman, but he played a significant period before then on the strength of his bowling. how many times must he have got out damaging a future batting average? (for the record, from 1980 onward imran averaged over 40 with the bat, and given this was the 80s, a time for bowlers and he was an outstanding bowler I'd put him equal to sobers in ability)

 

[TumTum]

Random fact
Australia had a higher batting average, had a higher run rate, a higher HS and a higher LS during 1999-2004 than 2004-2010.

 

[sifter132]

I think he was talking about Symonds when he said "Yeah, shame he can't bowl either style well enough to make much difference."

Indeed I was talking about Roy. But thanks for the spirited defense of Sobers bowling War :laugh

Keith miller spent more than half his career batting at #5 or lower and the majority of his runs came at that position. Coming in at #5 Sobers scored about 100 runs less then Miller at the same position in 15 less innings. Miller played just about half the innings Sobers did and Sobers also opened the bowling. Its clear that Miller was a better bowler but nowhere near when it came to batting.

Oh for sure. The argument I'm making is more a qualitative one. A guy who batted a little higher and bowled earlier on a better team is considered the inferior player. It's just food for thought rather than 'proof' of anything.

A complete all-rounder meaning a player who at the players "all-rounder peak" could score a hundred & take 5-wicket hauls consistently.

If that's the case, then Sobers mightn't be the greatest complete all-rounder then.
Here's a table of players who made a century and took a 5fer IN THE SAME SERIES It's happened 81 times. Sobers has 5 of those.
Other guys who did it more than once:
Ian Botham - 10
Garfield Sobers - 5
Imran Khan - 3
Keith Miller - 3
Wasim Akram - 3
A bunch of others did it twice including Flintoff, Tony Greig, Kallis and Shaun Pollock.
And for those interested, Kapil Dev and Richard Hadlee only had 1 series each.

Also, there has only been 3 series ever where a player has taken at least 2 5fers and made at least 2 centuries:
Richie Benaud 57/58 v South Africa - 2 centuries, 4 5fers
Tony Greig 73/74 v West Indies - 2 centuries, 3 5fers
Ian Botham the legendary 1981 Ashes - 2 centuries, 3 5fers

Kallis hasn't taken a 5-wicket haul againts a quality test opposition since Trent Bridge 2003 vs ENG. Kallis is basically this decade has been a top-class batsmen who can contribute effective with the ball depending on conditions (mainly bowler friendly conditions - on flat decks his bowling is generally ineffective). Kallis never could put two together over a series. His bowling in test has always been that of a 5th bowler, especially since his began took off around 2003/04.

There's a very simple reason Kallis hasn't taken many 5fers - he didn't bowl near as much as Sobers. To get a 5fer you probably need to bowl 20 or more overs in an innings.
Sobers bowled 20 overs in an innings (or 15x8 ball overs) 92 times for 8 career 5fers
:
Kallis has bowled 20 overs 37 times for 5 career 5fers (2 v Bangladesh)
It's not Kallis' fault he's had to wait behind Donald, Steyn, Pollock and Ntini.

Sobers peak as complete all-rounder was between Australia 60/61 to ENG 1969 in tests. Once could include the Rest of World vs England matches in 1970 as well here.

In that period Sobers averaged 55 with the bat - 31 with the ball.

I can play with Statsguru too. How about Kallis' almost 10 year slab from 1998 England series to 2007/08? averaging 63 with bat, 31 with ball
If I play fair and take Bangladesh and Zimbabwe out that time period becomes:average of 58.6 with bat, 33.4 with ball And given the recent trend of better batting pitches probably adding to averages by a couple, then the records are virtually identical.

Good discussions people