Aah the exact same things I wanted to say. I don't know what those players are doing in final 11. Du Plesis made me think again when he performed very well in IPL 2012 but then again he is back to normal. I can't really complain about Peterson because conditions are not ideal for him but still he is a hit or miss bowler. I would prefer Imran Tahir over him anyday. Never really liked Parnell and I think SA counts him as an all rounder? It is very awkward. Same with McLaren. I am sure War is gonna jump on me for this but I don't really know what is so special about McLaren. As you mentioned by those stats that he didn't do anything by bat and neither with ball. He even got new ball is one of the matches I think but still didn't do very well. He is just like James Franklin of SA.
South Africa in England July-Sept 2012
- Thread starter angryangy
- Start date
Aah the exact same things I wanted to say. I don't know what those players are doing in final 11. Du Plesis made me think again when he performed very well in IPL 2012 but then again he is back to normal. I can't really complain about Peterson because conditions are not ideal for him but still he is a hit or miss bowler. I would prefer Imran Tahir over him anyday. Never really liked Parnell and I think SA counts him as an all rounder? It is very awkward. Same with McLaren. I am sure War is gonna jump on me for this but I don't really know what is so special about McLaren. As you mentioned by those stats that he didn't do anything by bat and neither with ball. He even got new ball is one of the matches I think but still didn't do very well. He is just like James Franklin of SA.
cricket_icon
International Cricketer
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- Apr 13, 2011
To be fair, most English batsmen have gotten starts, only Bell and Morgan have impressed. If the saffers had a better middle order and the scores weren't so low, the English batting itself would be in trouble. I think moving Bopara lower down the order will help. I seem to remember he has done well for England in t2- especially when he has batted 6.
His bowling has been pretty good and I don't like all this talk of Bairstow replacing Bopara, the talk just hasn't receded and with Ravis recent problems, it just doesn't help. Personally I'd like to see Bairstow in the team but in place of Kieswetter. That way we keep a bowler and get a better keeper/batsman imo. That seems a more natural replacement.
puddleduck
Chairman of Selectors
His recent personal problems don't really have anything to do with it, I don't think he's ever looked 'in' when batting for England whether he's getting out cheaply again, or scoring a scratchy 50 where he gets dropped 5 times.
cricket_icon
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Terrible batting by England. Kieswetter especially just gave away his wicket at such a crucial moment.
Bopara will be lucky to be picked again any time soon, just 22 runs with the bat in the series and a handy wicket every now and then won't carry him (@ near enough 30 each this series)
182 was never going to be enough, not without knocking over the next couple of wickets before the saffers got to 50. Woakes may never be more than a good county player and handy bowler who can bat a bit without being strong enough in either discipline to be an all-rounder or top bowler.
I think it is hard to believe these two sides are swapping places at the top during this series, with players like Bopara, Du Plessis, Parnell, McLaren and Tsotsobe around looking very ordinary indeed.
puddleduck
Chairman of Selectors
So Woakes ahead of Ravi for his batting, but the other way around for bowling at the moment?
Who was that aimed at? I didn't blame him for the defeat, didn't include him in the list of players looking ordinary. I was merely pointing out he's not quite an all-rounder, although someone on TMS was touting him as one.
He's definitely handy with the bat, not convinced he'll be a genuine all-rounder. He's made a few 1st class hundreds, but his batting average is sustained by 26 not outs (over 1 in 4) Time will tell if his batting can make a step up, but county attacks and lots of not outs can be a bit too much to bridge. Nice tidy knocks like yesterday are one thing, being able to bowl quick and bat near enough like a proper batsman is something else.
venom2011
Club Cricketer
Du Plessis is a bit like ABdV-light. They have a similar type of high-pressure game which can really hurt the opposition, but obviously he is not in the same class. He is just going through a bit of a lean patch, but is very effective once he finds his form.
Parnell was a young talent who fell away after injuries. He has only recently started making decent strides and getting his pace back. But he does need a good season in domestic cricket to stake a real claim.
McLaren is just one of those guys who is usually very dependable and is a decent squad player. He hasn't, and probably will never, stake a claim for a first XI spot.
Odd ODI series, I think both sides were struggling with the bat with only a couple of players batting well (and being allowed to bat well by failing to catch...). Fair result in the end, not quite sure what to make of it.
Ravi had an absolute shocker and whilst his bowling was effective, it's in relatively little context unless he had an average series (ie, averaging 20s to 30 rather than 5...). Dernbach looked better with the ball, I hope we stick with him, I think he's improved a lot and could well be a very good short format bowler in the future.
Bit harsh on Woakes above, I wanted him given the whole series, but alas it wasn't to be. He can clearly bat, but I see him more in the Broad role, he's no true all-rounder, but it's a skill that has to be taken in to affect. I didn't actually see much of his bowling, looked down on pace initially, but feel he could be a replacement for Jimmy a few years down the line. Talented player, but has some work to do.
We need to find a place for Bairstow, time to give him a chance with the gloves, Kieswetter just has no wow factor, he's rarely consistently bad, just a bit meh, kind of like Bresnan, reliable, but is he really a match-winner? Just like Tredwell, thought he did pretty well with the ball, but he's nothing more than an acceptable stand in for Swann (and we could do a whole lot worse than Tredwell in the meantime).
The KP issue affects the team and balance going forward (obviously) as does Broad, who has been a pretty regular wicket taker for us.
However, our ODI record this year is something I'm very pleased with regardless of the issues that exist.
Ravi had an absolute shocker and whilst his bowling was effective, it's in relatively little context unless he had an average series (ie, averaging 20s to 30 rather than 5...). Dernbach looked better with the ball, I hope we stick with him, I think he's improved a lot and could well be a very good short format bowler in the future.
Bit harsh on Woakes above, I wanted him given the whole series, but alas it wasn't to be. He can clearly bat, but I see him more in the Broad role, he's no true all-rounder, but it's a skill that has to be taken in to affect. I didn't actually see much of his bowling, looked down on pace initially, but feel he could be a replacement for Jimmy a few years down the line. Talented player, but has some work to do.
We need to find a place for Bairstow, time to give him a chance with the gloves, Kieswetter just has no wow factor, he's rarely consistently bad, just a bit meh, kind of like Bresnan, reliable, but is he really a match-winner? Just like Tredwell, thought he did pretty well with the ball, but he's nothing more than an acceptable stand in for Swann (and we could do a whole lot worse than Tredwell in the meantime).
The KP issue affects the team and balance going forward (obviously) as does Broad, who has been a pretty regular wicket taker for us.
However, our ODI record this year is something I'm very pleased with regardless of the issues that exist.
If Woakes can't deliver with the ball better then he won't get a chance to stake a claim as any kind of all-rounder.
vs AUS : 1/31 off seven overs (ER 4.43)
Decent effort on debut, made 12 with the bat late innings but the 214 total wasn't enough to defend
vs AUS : 6/45 off 10 overs (ER 4.50)
Sterling effort, brilliant. England were reduced to 22/3 and never got going in pursuit of 250
vs AUS : 0/73 off 9.3 overs (ER 7.82)
England scored 333/6 but those runs were knocked off despite three run outs
vs IRE : 0/20 off 6.0 overs (ER 3.33)
England made 201/8 in 42 overs, Woakes a decent 19no. Ireland were never in the hunt in this D/L or rain ruined match as they were 77/6 and eventually 117/8 off their 23 overs.
vs SAF : 0/35 off 6.0 overs (ER 5.83)
Good 33no in a weak 182 total. Dernbach was even more expensive in the speedy chase down of the target with around 1/3 of the overs left to bowl.
So far he's been a jonah, lost four of the five ODIs he's played and the only win was against Ireland. Since his brilliant 6/45 he's done little to write home about. It might of course help if he didn't have over a year to wait for another chance. He's only 23 so there is time, but Finn's only 23 as well so it isn't like you can't be young and have success early on, as indeed Woakes did 2nd ODI in
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The record that matters is World Cups won, not the odd series or ODI win here and there that really means little in the long run. We're still three finals, zero wins in the World Cup, fifty years down the line people won't look back and say "our ODI record that year is something we're very pleased with"
vs AUS : 1/31 off seven overs (ER 4.43)
Decent effort on debut, made 12 with the bat late innings but the 214 total wasn't enough to defend
vs AUS : 6/45 off 10 overs (ER 4.50)
Sterling effort, brilliant. England were reduced to 22/3 and never got going in pursuit of 250
vs AUS : 0/73 off 9.3 overs (ER 7.82)
England scored 333/6 but those runs were knocked off despite three run outs
vs IRE : 0/20 off 6.0 overs (ER 3.33)
England made 201/8 in 42 overs, Woakes a decent 19no. Ireland were never in the hunt in this D/L or rain ruined match as they were 77/6 and eventually 117/8 off their 23 overs.
vs SAF : 0/35 off 6.0 overs (ER 5.83)
Good 33no in a weak 182 total. Dernbach was even more expensive in the speedy chase down of the target with around 1/3 of the overs left to bowl.
So far he's been a jonah, lost four of the five ODIs he's played and the only win was against Ireland. Since his brilliant 6/45 he's done little to write home about. It might of course help if he didn't have over a year to wait for another chance. He's only 23 so there is time, but Finn's only 23 as well so it isn't like you can't be young and have success early on, as indeed Woakes did 2nd ODI in
----------
The record that matters is World Cups won, not the odd series or ODI win here and there that really means little in the long run. We're still three finals, zero wins in the World Cup, fifty years down the line people won't look back and say "our ODI record that year is something we're very pleased with"
Ahmad94
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Going by just the squads, South Africa look a lot stronger
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