Indian Premier League - General Discussion

icyman

ICC Chairman
India
The Boys
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Location
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If any, international cricket is toxic with its misplaced patriotism (mostly in subcontinent nations) and I have this opinion without any CSK bias.

I cannot understand where you are getting these words/thoughts from. Misplaced Patriotism, really?

Maligning representative organization? What are you talking about? I said that players play with a lot more freedom/clarity when playing for franchises than when they play with their country name that is tied to the private entity that is associated with ICC.

I do not agree with this hypothesis. English players, Australians, Indians tend to value the ICC tournaments much more than the IPL. Your line holds true in terms of MSD and Virat, the only two players whom I have seen turn up unashamedly for their franchisee masters. However, with the rest of the players, I have never seen anyone have much more freedom while expressing themselves.

Intl cricket survives by using country name and tingles the feel good hormones of ppl by making them think “if my country wins, it’s better than the country it beats”. When they lose, the feeling of “my country has lost to that country…”. But few days/months later, the reverse happens and the mood changes. See how shallow it is? None of this in franchise leagues.

Isn't the same applicable to franchisees as well? In my years of following the IPL, it is evident that MI and SK have had this rivalry for ages now. If MI loses to CSK, the fans of MI do get worked up, odnt they? Vice-versa, even for CSK. To the extent, we have commentators favouring certain sides as well. Really surprised that you make this conclusion!
 

SaiSrini

Respected Legend
CSK
PlanetCricket Award Winner
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
USA
I cannot understand where you are getting these words/thoughts from. Misplaced Patriotism, really?



I do not agree with this hypothesis. English players, Australians, Indians tend to value the ICC tournaments much more than the IPL. Your line holds true in terms of MSD and Virat, the only two players whom I have seen turn up unashamedly for their franchisee masters. However, with the rest of the players, I have never seen anyone have much more freedom while expressing themselves.



Isn't the same applicable to franchisees as well? In my years of following the IPL, it is evident that MI and SK have had this rivalry for ages now. If MI loses to CSK, the fans of MI do get worked up, odnt they? Vice-versa, even for CSK. To the extent, we have commentators favouring certain sides as well. Really surprised that you make this conclusion!

Yes. It is misplaced patriotism. The patriotism that abuses a player for attending to the birth of his child and for skipping after all an ‘international game of sport’. One that throws stones and hurts players families when results don’t go their way. One where ppl die because they couldn’t take a defeat in after all a game of sport because they think their country has lost.

On your 2nd reply - Players priorities are changing. Yes international cricket is still valued right now because the generation where intl cricket was romanticized, are still in play. But already moves are happening to offer players long term contracts where franchises manage player workloads and decide “where the player will play for”. When the next generation takes over, they’ll value IPL/league successes.

On your argument about ppl having same feelings for MI or CSK - well it’s completely different. You don’t have a country name associated with those teams. When they lose, fans know that it’s just a franchise and s private company that runs the team. But with internationals, this private company called BCCI runs it under the name “India” (why govt hasn’t objected to it? The govt owns BCCI as a proxy through its ruling party BJP).
 

icyman

ICC Chairman
India
The Boys
Joined
May 17, 2004
Location
Hong Kong
Profile Flag
India
Yes. It is misplaced patriotism. The patriotism that abuses a player for attending to the birth of his child and for skipping after all an ‘international game of sport’. One that throws stones and hurts players families when results don’t go their way. One where ppl die because they couldn’t take a defeat in after all a game of sport because they think their country has lost.

Let me remind you that MSD was the one who sparked the debate pertaining to the birth of a child. Each player has different priorities. MSd didnt attend the birth of his daughter by citing the CWC 2015 preparation. However, Virat and Umesh did. This isn't misplaced patriotism. Just cause one person did it, doesn't mean the rest ought to follow suit.

As for people getting upset due to losses, I see nothing wrong in that. India has been an emotional country whenever it comes to sport. If we continually lose (despite being a powerful cricket nation, people are bound to question)
On your 2nd reply - Players priorities are changing. Yes international cricket is still valued right now because the generation where intl cricket was romanticized, are still in play. But already moves are happening to offer players long term contracts where franchises manage player workloads and decide “where the player will play for”. When the next generation takes over, they’ll value IPL/league successes.

How does this translate to 'I said that players play with a lot more freedom/clarity when playing for franchises than when they play with their country name that is tied to the private entity that is associated with ICC' ? I say this ,as my point was specifically in relation to your statement.

If, as per the above, Franchisees start controlling the game(as it happens in football) players would be under more pressure to perform or perish. What you are also forgetting my friend, is that the BCCI still holds all aces to the game. It simply takes 10 seconds for them to devalue the entire league if they feel their own powers are being curtailed.

Franchisees may have a controlling stake in terms of lesser nations- they have always had- English counties powers over the Associate European players- however, that has not let international cricket suffer. WI were stupid enough to let theirs happen- I doubt England, Australia and India would let the same happen.
On your argument about ppl having same feelings for MI or CSK - well it’s completely different. You don’t have a country name associated with those teams. When they lose, fans know that it’s just a franchise and s private company that runs the team. But with internationals, this private company called BCCI runs it under the name “India” (why govt hasn’t objected to it? The govt owns BCCI as a proxy through its ruling party BJP).

I still don't get why you are so against the BCCI representing Indian cricket. Indian govt has not raised any concern, so be it. It is more transparent than Hockey India, WFI, Chess Fed and Indian Football. Secondly, I dont think it wise wise to state that the govt is owning the BCCI via BJP. In essence, whenever a new govt takes centre-stage, all heads of sporting feds are changed. This happens in most of the nations.

Coming to your point over MI or CSK. I guess you answered the concerns of patriotism yourself. People just do not have the same feelings cause these are mere franchisees. For all you know, it simply takes a business down tide to get rid of some of the big names. Rivalries will exist at all levels- however, CSK beating Sialkot/Sydney will never have the same effect that India beating Australia/ Pakistan will have.
 

Fenil

PC Cricket Leagues Legend
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
Internationals being painted a “holier than thou” picture. Yes he has equal emotions for the India Cements franchise and like many other players, play with lot more clarity and lesser pressure than intl cricket. International cricket makes money just like franchise cricket. Doesn’t make international cricket any holier. They use the country’s name without even the permission of the government (don’t even get me started on BCCI’s private entity status).

Any proof that he didn’t let wicketkeepers stay? This is like saying “Lata Mangeshkar ruined many female singers careers” (the favorite Bollywood conspiracy theory of the past few decades).
For me, it is. For you it's not and it's okay for me. A country's name unites the sentiments of people. Isn't the world cup win of this International team way back in 1983 the reason this game gained unprecedented popularity in the succeeding decades that also gave the likes of Sachin, Dravid, Kumble, Ganguly, Kohli and your Messiah Dhoni et all the rise and choice to play the game as a career? Imagine this being always reduced to a franchise/state/city affair, this would have never made it this popular.

Representing a country is always bigger than a franchise. When representing a country, you know are a part of 11 of the absolute best players in the whole country which speaks volumes about your talent and skill. There is a reason why INTL capped players are rated better even in your franchise slambang show. There is a reason why people graduate from domestic and/or franchise cricket to internationals. There is a reason why West Indies play as one internationally and not individual tiny islands and there is a reason why a certain Michael Holding or Joel Garner or Andy Roberts are always given a lot of respect compared to Colin Croft who probably was equally good. Same goes for say Yuvraj who played while fighting cancer for India or Graeme Smith or Marshall who played with fractured fingers/thumbs/hands or Kumble with broken jaw. You might be more interested in just sixes and praying your Thala but when one plays for the country the differences are set aside and played with mutual respect which brings the nation together. I can acclaim that your Indian cements pet had vested interest in the profits of the franchise apart from being a player for the yellow franchise. For India team, he was already getting the money and was at the helm of the team so he had no reason to perform except for swelling his average in ODIs.

Stop making him a God and making the csk as godly bunch. Didn't Dhoni choose to skip to receive the award given by the country? Didn't he charge a handsome amount for making a film on him (well within his right to be honest) while the legendary Milkha Singh understood the sentiment and took only Re.1/-? Wasn't he filed a case against for a fraud committed by the real estate builder company he promoted and had a stake in? Was csk ban for nothing and that they accepted it without reason?

Coming to the intl vs franchise thing, do you know how much still the respect the likes of Graeme Smith and Yuvraj Singh generate because of what they did for their respective countries? I understand your approach might be like take a game as a game and if you are a player, play in for all money because you need to feed the family. No harm in that but to tell that representing a country means nothing in comparison to a franchise is plain mindless approach in my opinion and you don't have to agree with that.

Sure! Dhoni was absolutely always mediocre with the bat in T20Is and average at best in Tests and still kept on playing even with a niggle or something making it look like there were no keepers in the country. Barring ODIs, it's not that he was playing any major role as a batsman. There were Karthik and Saha for Tests who werent given any chances even when your God was struggling big time nor were the likes of Parthiv (not a good keeper but a much consistent batsman circa late 2000s and early 2010s), Uday Kaul who was never given a chance, Sheldon Jackson, Kedar Devdhar were all good enough to replace Dhoni in some format or the other. Devdhar in fact was striking at 156 at one point of his career.

Anyway, you may have missed the question about Sam Curran. Do you think as a CSK fan that your team can afford to fit in Curran at the expense of Moeen?
 

SaiSrini

Respected Legend
CSK
PlanetCricket Award Winner
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
USA
For me, it is. For you it's not and it's okay for me. A country's name unites the sentiments of people. Isn't the world cup win of this International team way back in 1983 the reason this game gained unprecedented popularity in the succeeding decades that also gave the likes of Sachin, Dravid, Kumble, Ganguly, Kohli and your Messiah Dhoni et all the rise and choice to play the game as a career? Imagine this being always reduced to a franchise/state/city affair, this would have never made it this popular.

Representing a country is always bigger than a franchise. When representing a country, you know are a part of 11 of the absolute best players in the whole country which speaks volumes about your talent and skill. There is a reason why INTL capped players are rated better even in your franchise slambang show. There is a reason why people graduate from domestic and/or franchise cricket to internationals. There is a reason why West Indies play as one internationally and not individual tiny islands and there is a reason why a certain Michael Holding or Joel Garner or Andy Roberts are always given a lot of respect compared to Colin Croft who probably was equally good. Same goes for say Yuvraj who played while fighting cancer for India or Graeme Smith or Marshall who played with fractured fingers/thumbs/hands or Kumble with broken jaw. You might be more interested in just sixes and praying your Thala but when one plays for the country the differences are set aside and played with mutual respect which brings the nation together. I can acclaim that your Indian cements pet had vested interest in the profits of the franchise apart from being a player for the yellow franchise. For India team, he was already getting the money and was at the helm of the team so he had no reason to perform except for swelling his average in ODIs.

Stop making him a God and making the csk as godly bunch. Didn't Dhoni choose to skip to receive the award given by the country? Didn't he charge a handsome amount for making a film on him (well within his right to be honest) while the legendary Milkha Singh understood the sentiment and took only Re.1/-? Wasn't he filed a case against for a fraud committed by the real estate builder company he promoted and had a stake in? Was csk ban for nothing and that they accepted it without reason?

Coming to the intl vs franchise thing, do you know how much still the respect the likes of Graeme Smith and Yuvraj Singh generate because of what they did for their respective countries? I understand your approach might be like take a game as a game and if you are a player, play in for all money because you need to feed the family. No harm in that but to tell that representing a country means nothing in comparison to a franchise is plain mindless approach in my opinion and you don't have to agree with that.

Sure! Dhoni was absolutely always mediocre with the bat in T20Is and average at best in Tests and still kept on playing even with a niggle or something making it look like there were no keepers in the country. Barring ODIs, it's not that he was playing any major role as a batsman. There were Karthik and Saha for Tests who werent given any chances even when your God was struggling big time nor were the likes of Parthiv (not a good keeper but a much consistent batsman circa late 2000s and early 2010s), Uday Kaul who was never given a chance, Sheldon Jackson, Kedar Devdhar were all good enough to replace Dhoni in some format or the other. Devdhar in fact was striking at 156 at one point of his career.

Anyway, you may have missed the question about Sam Curran. Do you think as a CSK fan that your team can afford to fit in Curran at the expense of Moeen?

I wanted to reply to you in a constructive way but after you using language like "your India Cements pet", its clear that you're getting personal here and I am going to avoid responding to any of your messages and I am going to put you right away on my ignore list in this forum.

Have a good life, my friend!
 

Fenil

PC Cricket Leagues Legend
Joined
Jan 1, 2011
I wanted to reply to you in a constructive way but after you using language like "your India Cements pet", its clear that you're getting personal here and I am going to avoid responding to any of your messages and I am going to put you right away on my ignore list in this forum.

Have a good life, my friend!
You are right. I stand corrected and apologize for that. I shouldn't have directed my disappointment for Dhoni towards you.

I genuinely would like to know your thoughts and also about what you think of the latest development with rumors (news?) doing rounds about MI permanently hiring the services of Jofra Archer? It's interesting because in a way if franchises perma-bought the excellent players, INTL cricket might probably die in a couple of decades if not earlier.

And you. And in case you choose to continue to ignore, wish you well and may your favorite player receive a swansong to remember but hope GT win the final. :laughter:
 

ShamiLoverGlipGlops

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Jaiswal having a great season. Look forward to seeing him carry the drinks for Rohit and KLR at the next WT20.
Unfortunate but sad reality for Indian Cricket. Loads of talent but no way to utilize it.
 

Fenil

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Joined
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Wow! Jaiswal and Buttler are having very contrasting season. Not for the first time but their roles have switched from the previous year.
 

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