Ashes 2015 - Australia tour of England July/September 2015

[Na Maloom Afraad]

A tail-end crash.

 

[PokerAce]

A question to all English fans here. Would you say that Cricket in England has recovered from the slump it had had in the mid 90s onwards. Where it had basically completely slipped out of public attention and consciousness, and very low down the sporting pecking order. A sport that outside of the cricket community no one really cared about.

In other words has Cricket re-established itself as atleast the no. 2 sport in England. Football being the no. 1 of course. Or alternatively ofcourse, was there never a 90s dip to begin with and thus there was nothing to re-establish at all.

 

[IceAgeComing]

Cricket is the top summer sport certainly - I'm not entirely sure whether. There'll be some places where it isn't played at all or followed much (there's been a continued decline of cricket in traditional working class areas especially inner cities: not helped by the decline of cricket in state schools) while in some places it'll be much bigger. The difference is that its part of a much wider decline of organised sport in much of the country because of urbanisation and councils mitigating cuts from their Central government block grant by flogging off school playing fields and other green areas and naturally cricket will decline more than football: if only because its much easier to organise quick games of football on the street or in your back garden, while from my experience as a kid bat and ball games are much harder to do. The lack of any live cricket on free TV doesn't help - although there's apparently a much greater chance of Free to Air Test cricket now that BT are starting to pick up some of the rights since it gives the boards flexibility to do non-exclusive deals and still earn lots of money...

I'm posting this from a Scottish perspective mind you: Cricket is the third team sport here in terms of participation (I believe that Football and Rugby Union are more played) and its probably the third highest in terms of fans although that ignores the sort of sports that generally people pay attention to in the summer like Golf and Athletics and things like that. My local club is about 60% Scots (possibly higher, there'll probably be some posh Scots that are indistinguishable from the English left out); 30% English and 10% other, my uni side was 50% Pakistani-origin (although most grew up in Pakistan, a few were second-generation), 30% English, 20% Indian and I was the only Scot. You'll get a crowd when Scotland plays England, Australia or Pakistan and probably would get a good crowd if India ever graced Scotland with their presence: but literally nothing for anything else - I went to the Scotland/Afghanistan First Class game in Stirling and there were possibly 20 people max when I was there?

 

[War]

I'm not sure if it ever slipped out of consciousness even during the 1990s slump. English cricket fan base has always been loyal, although small.

As IceAge just mentioned the lack of cricket (especially home season matches) as it was for long periods up until the famous 2005 Ashes summer, isn't helping with the growing of the base options where England can chose potential cricketers form - even though the Skysports TV rights money has made ECB very rich in last decade.

Cricket is played mainly in the private school system, its expensive and thus the majority elite/upper middle class white people that play it. The average/poor income white man, ALL black people and large majority of Indian popular is all for football or support India/Pakistan in cricket.

 

[C Boomer]

Cricket is the top summer sport certainly - I'm not entirely sure whether. There'll be some places where it isn't played at all or followed much (there's been a continued decline of cricket in traditional working class areas especially inner cities: not helped by the decline of cricket in state schools) while in some places it'll be much bigger. The difference is that its part of a much wider decline of organised sport in much of the country because of urbanisation and councils mitigating cuts from their Central government block grant by flogging off school playing fields and other green areas and naturally cricket will decline more than football: if only because its much easier to organise quick games of football on the street or in your back garden, while from my experience as a kid bat and ball games are much harder to do. The lack of any live cricket on free TV doesn't help - although there's apparently a much greater chance of Free to Air Test cricket now that BT are starting to pick up some of the rights since it gives the boards flexibility to do non-exclusive deals and still earn lots of money...

I'm posting this from a Scottish perspective mind you: Cricket is the third team sport here in terms of participation (I believe that Football and Rugby Union are more played) and its probably the third highest in terms of fans although that ignores the sort of sports that generally people pay attention to in the summer like Golf and Athletics and things like that. My local club is about 60% Scots (possibly higher, there'll probably be some posh Scots that are indistinguishable from the English left out); 30% English and 10% other, my uni side was 50% Pakistani-origin (although most grew up in Pakistan, a few were second-generation), 30% English, 20% Indian and I was the only Scot. You'll get a crowd when Scotland plays England, Australia or Pakistan and probably would get a good crowd if India ever graced Scotland with their presence: but literally nothing for anything else - I went to the Scotland/Afghanistan First Class game in Stirling and there were possibly 20 people max when I was there?

To be fair and I'll give Scotland their dues, they have really pulled it around and made themselves a very combatitive and competitive top associate cricketing nation !

 

[PokerAce]

Cricket is the top summer sport certainly - I'm not entirely sure whether. There'll be some places where it isn't played at all or followed much (there's been a continued decline of cricket in traditional working class areas especially inner cities: not helped by the decline of cricket in state schools) while in some places it'll be much bigger. The difference is that its part of a much wider decline of organised sport in much of the country because of urbanisation and councils mitigating cuts from their Central government block grant by flogging off school playing fields and other green areas and naturally cricket will decline more than football: if only because its much easier to organise quick games of football on the street or in your back garden, while from my experience as a kid bat and ball games are much harder to do. The lack of any live cricket on free TV doesn't help - although there's apparently a much greater chance of Free to Air Test cricket now that BT are starting to pick up some of the rights since it gives the boards flexibility to do non-exclusive deals and still earn lots of money...

I'm posting this from a Scottish perspective mind you: Cricket is the third team sport here in terms of participation (I believe that Football and Rugby Union are more played) and its probably the third highest in terms of fans although that ignores the sort of sports that generally people pay attention to in the summer like Golf and Athletics and things like that. My local club is about 60% Scots (possibly higher, there'll probably be some posh Scots that are indistinguishable from the English left out); 30% English and 10% other, my uni side was 50% Pakistani-origin (although most grew up in Pakistan, a few were second-generation), 30% English, 20% Indian and I was the only Scot. You'll get a crowd when Scotland plays England, Australia or Pakistan and probably would get a good crowd if India ever graced Scotland with their presence: but literally nothing for anything else - I went to the Scotland/Afghanistan First Class game in Stirling and there were possibly 20 people max when I was there?

I'm not sure if it ever slipped out of consciousness even during the 1990s slump. English cricket fan base has always been loyal, although small.

As IceAge just mentioned the lack of cricket (especially home season matches) as it was for long periods up until the famous 2005 Ashes summer, isn't helping with the growing of the base options where England can chose potential cricketers form - even though the Skysports TV rights money has made ECB very rich in last decade.

Cricket is played mainly in the private school system, its expensive and thus the majority elite/upper middle class white people that play it. The average/poor income white man, ALL black people and large majority of Indian popular is all for football or support India/Pakistan in cricket.

That is an interesting insight. As I gather cricket remains more popular with the upper echelons of society than the common masses. In India there was a similar divide, in the sense that for a long long while Indian cricket team was mostly comprised of players from the big cities - Delhi, Bombay (as it was then). However the sport was fairly popular even in the rural areas, and with common masses, even though the players were not making it into the national side. That trend has firmly changed now. Kapil Dev was the first to change the trend, and after Dhoni who came from the smallest of towns and to leave the mark he did, they trend has definitely gone out of the window.

Also the attendance figures that IceAge mentioned, in Scotland was a bit surprising, especially than Scottish Football is not exactly at its strongest, both in regard to the national side, and the league. I would understand low attendances in England as frankly Football there is right at the very top, and so people flock to the football games rather than cricket. However that cricket is so far behind in Scotland is a little surprising. I remember once Dravid played for Scotland, for a season and he once recounted that most of the players were playing cricket as a hobby and had other jobs. That was in the days when Scotland were nowhere on the cricketing map. With Scotland regularly qualifying for ICC events that trend surely will change. I can cite B'desh as the perfect example. B'desh not that long ago were a Football nation. Within the region they had a good side, and Football was the no. 1 sport in B'desh. Part of it had to do with the fact, that B'desh was carved out of the State called West Bengal in India. Anyone will tell you that the West Bengal is where football in India is most popular.

The Kolkata derby (Kolkata being the Capital of West Bengal state), which is played between East Bengal and Mohun Bagan, has insane attendance figures, not matched by any sport anywhere in the world. I am not making it up, trust me. In 1997 the derby match, drew in an attendance figure of 131,000. That should give you a good idea of just much the people of Bengal love football. Anyway, I think I am digressing. The point was people of Bengal love football and B'desh was carved out of Bengal during partition of India. It first became East Pakistan and then after the '71 India-Pak war, became independant as the new nation of B'desh.

Anyway, the point is since B'desh was initially a part of Bengal, the people of B'desh retained the love of Football that people of Bengal have. So in B'desh till about 2000, football was by far the no. 1 sport. However after B'desh came onto the world scene in cricket, Cricket very quickly surpassed the popularity of Football there. Its definitely the no. 1 sport in B'desh. I think a similar cricket revolution could happen in Scotland and Ireland. The dynamics are similar in many ways. The national teams not doing great and the league not being the best or the most financially rewarding. So if cricket does bring national success, Ireland and Scotland could see a rapid increase in popularity.

 

[IceAgeComing]

Scottish Football is not exactly at its strongest... in regard to the national side

Football will always be huge in Scotland and way, way larger than anything else even in its current terrible state. the national team may not be performing particularly well but that hasn't affected domestic interest - mostly because Scottish fans are naturally pessimists and are generally OK with losing a game provided we play well. You still get lots of people going to see Scotland away and I've found that the Tartan Army are highly regarded around Europe as both being passionate and creating a good atmosphere while also being very friendly and not causing any issues. That makes the sweet moments when we embarrass someone absolutely fantastic: like when we properly beat France twice in the Euro 2008 (?) qualifiers and had a good chance of qualifying... before we threw away a game against Ukraine that we really ought to have won and only managed to draw against Italy. The Scottish team has a habit of rolling over some of the best teams in the world but then losing to really small crap teams when it really matters - I suppose you can say that we are the South Africa of European football . Domestic football is something else: I'm on the belief that Rangers not being at top form will hopefully break up the Old Firm thing and spread money out across the league; but my faith on that is reducing as time goes on.

You don't have the cultural support of cricket in Scotland and that's key: its seen as rather elitist, which isn't very popular is Scotland which sees itself as rather egalitarian. Its bigger than most expect: and you'll find that there are a fair few people (including me!) that support the English cricket team but wouldn't go anywhere near supporting any other English sports team: probably because until reasonably recently (1994) the English team was technically the "British" team and Scotland was under the ECB and not independent, and you had Scottish players playing for and captaining England. Despite being part of the same union and being broadly similar in other ways, Scotland and England are very, very different in terms of sports that aren't football.

 

[PokerAce]

@IceAgeComing Well I never said I expect football to give way to cricket, though I did, give the example of B'desh. However what I meant was that cricket in light of the fact that football is not going places in Scotland, could get a boost. While the boost may not be enough to take it beyond football, but a boost nevertheless to push it further forward.

Also while I don't fully understand Scotland/England equation, but I would have thought that there is potential for a great rivalry there. I see that in football and I see that in European club leagues when an English club faces a scottish club. So why not cricket. Now that the boards are seperate, surely there is room there to further push Scottish cricket.

 

[bigred]

I have to say I'm still not convinced by Billings. What's the point in having him in at 6 when Stokes, Willey and Rashid are in the dugout. Pick another guy that can bowl. Woakes or Plunkett would be equally as effective with the bat as Billings.

I've also just realised that Vince is in the squad. Billings vs Vince. No contest. If England want 7 specialist batsmen then they can do a lot better than Billings. Anyway, when Root comes back he'll be out anyway.

 

[Deleted member 149013]

@PokerAce
There is a great rivalry with England and Scotland always has been especially football terms but that adds to occasion with cricket their isn’t I don’t why that’s the case. Speaking as an Englishman it’s just a bit of fun as I see it some people are a little over the top proud their more hooligan types.

Ireland should be a test team I reckon and granted two tests against the major nations England v Ireland at Lords in a test would just be a crowd drawer. Also Scotland on the rise and it’s great to see maybe not for the ICC but as a cricket fan.

Great result for England today and as @bigred pointed out Billings has no really role (looks more a ODI batsman) and I agree with this when the likes of talented players like Vince wait in the wings or trying out a spin option such as Parry or even a fast bowler.

Topley had a decent start and Willey just gets better.

 

[bigred]

Great to see another good England performance today. We're really making progress under the new management and Morgan's captaincy.

Topley and Willey were good. This left arm theory in T20s has been going around for a while and I'm beginning to think that there might be some truth in it.

Steve Finn worries me slightly going into the T20 WC. He's great when the pitch has pace in it. But on slower tracks, he bowls pretty much one length. Smith basically said he targeted him today as he knew where the ball would land.

Billings needs to be dropped in favour of another bowler. Probably Ansari or Dawson, so that we have 3 spinners in the team for India. That way we'd have a left arm finger spinner, right arm finger spinner (Ali) and a wrist spinner (Rashid).

 

[Deleted member 149013]

Great to see another good England performance today. We're really making progress under the new management and Morgan's captaincy.

Topley and Willey were good. This left arm theory in T20s has been going around for a while and I'm beginning to think that there might be some truth in it.

Steve Finn worries me slightly going into the T20 WC. He's great when the pitch has pace in it. But on slower tracks, he bowls pretty much one length. Smith basically said he targeted him today as he knew where the ball would land.

Billings needs to be dropped in favour of another bowler. Probably Ansari or Dawson, so that we have 3 spinners in the team for India. That way we'd have a left arm finger spinner, right arm finger spinner (Ali) and a wrist spinner (Rashid).

Was not impressed by Rashid today he looks very ordinary I would look at Ansari, Dawson and Parry as good potential players that could solve a few issues for England. If England are going to use a leg spinner in test cricket best to look at a younger player Rashid for me has no threat of enough variation, Finn was short today and bowled poorly.

I don’t think there is anything wrong in that you still have to criticise a winning team to challenge them and to improve them.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

I think Borthwick has a huge future if nurtured properly. Same with Billings.

 

[bigred]

I think Borthwick has a huge future if nurtured properly. Same with Billings.

I'm sure Billings is a good player, he just doesn't seem to have a proper role in the side. Batting 6/7, not keeping and not bowling just seems pointless.

Borthwick's bowling seems to have picked up a bit. I'd stick with Rashid for a while though.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

I'm sure Billings is a good player, he just doesn't seem to have a proper role in the side. Batting 6/7, not keeping and not bowling just seems pointless.

Borthwick's bowling seems to have picked up a bit. I'd stick with Rashid for a while though.

England were rescued from a serious wobble by Ali and Morgan. The style they're playing needs batting depth. On certain days, three batters will be enough while on some days eleven will be less. It's very easy to chop and change in white ball cricket. The mantra to succeed from what I've seen in the past decade is to back certain chaps for a couple of seasons by removing the fear of them losing their place in the side. This gives them confidence and freedom to perform at their best. I think, England are in a good place. Morgan looks like a guy with a reasonable head as well. The idea of having 15-20 chaps with exposure before the next WC is vital and England would be mad to not keep the faith in a chap like Billings. If his growth is constant, the finished article looks ominous.

I'll really like to see Borthwick in the UAE. But, it won't happen. I think Rashid can be a good LOI bowler. Tests? I'll wait and see. Have my doubts.