Dec 3-7: 2nd Test: Australia v England at the Adelaide Oval

[Slowcoach]

Come on, North really isn't that bad, the rest of the top order haven't averaged much better since he came into the side.

Slowcoach added 6 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

As for this "bias" against Victorians, what is the basis for this argument?
We have used every bloody crap Victorian bowler apart from Wright in the past 2 years, and Hodge had his chance and blew it with a dreadful tour to India. Check the stats, he averaged about 8 for the series with a strike rate of 50, he blew it.
And David Hussey, all he does is monster crap teams occasionally at domestic level, he is not consistent enough, and has looked overawed at international level in his ODI appearances.
Whining about NSW players getting picked, why? Because Katich, Watson, and Clarke have been our most consistent batsmen for the last few years? And Hauritz has been our best spinner? (5-39 off 27 overs today by the way, doesn't look too crap to me, have Doherty or Holland or Krejza done that at domestic level yet, ever?).
Get a clue, the team sucks, and it is not due to selection.

 

[ChefMan21]

Come on, North really isn't that bad, the rest of the top order haven't averaged much better since he came into the side.

Slowcoach added 6 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

As for this "bias" against Victorians, what is the basis for this argument?
We have used every bloody crap Victorian bowler apart from Wright in the past 2 years, and Hodge had his chance and blew it with a dreadful tour to India. Check the stats, he averaged about 8 for the series with a strike rate of 50, he blew it.
And David Hussey, all he does is monster crap teams occasionally at domestic level, he is not consistent enough, and has looked overawed at international level in his ODI appearances.
Whining about NSW players getting picked, why? Because Katich, Watson, and Clarke have been our most consistent batsmen for the last few years? And Hauritz has been our best spinner? (5-39 off 27 overs today by the way, doesn't look too crap to me, have Doherty or Holland or Krejza done that at domestic level yet, ever?).
Get a clue, the team sucks, and it is not due to selection.

I think it's more about potential with North. The other have all got that BIG innings in them or the ability to take a game away from England. Or both. North has scored rare centuries of no great total on mostly (all?) flat tracks. And not at key moments.

 

[aussie1st]

North is that bad, he is a whole 10 runs down in terms of average compared to the rest of the batsmen. He has averaged 30 for the year while the next closest is Watson on 41.

 

[Slowcoach]

Ok, who are we going to pick instead of North?
Khawaja, who clearly is not ready, and just piles on runs on a flat SCG?
Smith, who is unbalancing the ODI side with his total lack of contribution with either bat or ball, and is clearly not ready?
Ferguson, who gets to bat on the flattest pitch in the world all the time, and yet still only averages 30?
Shaun Marsh, who wowed the Indian fans by cashing in on flat pitches in the IPL by batting in the prime opening spot, and still only averages 30?
Cameron White, who fails anytime he has to defend under pressure?
It is not North's fault he can't score run a ball double tons when the rest of the team have failed dismally and we are 6-25.
Gilchrist is about the only player who could do that, ever.
Scoring runs when others do doesn't mean they are worthless.
Yes, he is weak, but the other alternatives are not much better, if at all, and Hussey and Hodge didn't take their chances often enough when they had them and their time is gone now.
Anyway, I just don't think the amount of criticism North cops is fair, he really isn't that bad, and until there is an obvious alternative we should focus on other things like our total inability to take wickets on flat pitches.
Hilfenhaus is overrated, Johnson is useless, Harris and Bollinger just cashed in on friendly pitches and weak opposition and are not as good as their stats suggest, and we don't have a spinner to speak of apart from Hauritz.
Doherty is pure crap, and this will be his last game in the test lineup ever.

Sure, we lost a few Greats, and they are hard to replace, but that just means we are going to have to put up with Average and Mediocre for a while.

It's no reason to start flailing around and flinging baggy green caps in all directions.

 

[aussie1st]

Flat SCG wicket? Last time I checked results were being produced within the 4 days and if anything its been seamer friendly. If scoring less than 100 runs is a flat track then I'd like to know what is a seamer friendly one. Smith is more than capable in the batting department, no idea why you are using his ODI form to look at his selection. He has made runs in Shield cricket, made runs in the Aus A game when all other contenders failed and then made runs against last week.

Khawaja has been averaging over 50 for the past 3 seasons, if that is not ready I don't know what is. He may not have performed when it mattered but that shouldn't throw away his past 3 seasons worth of work in a couple of weeks.

In those two you have guys who are making runs which North isn't and are the future. Even if they are equal to North they have more upside than him.

And Bollinger cashing in on weak opposition on bowler friendly tracks? Last time I checked India were number 1 and when do they ever make bowler friendly tracks?

 

[mattfb]

Ok, who are we going to pick instead of North?
Khawaja, who clearly is not ready, and just piles on runs on a flat SCG?
Smith, who is unbalancing the ODI side with his total lack of contribution with either bat or ball, and is clearly not ready?
Ferguson, who gets to bat on the flattest pitch in the world all the time, and yet still only averages 30?
Shaun Marsh, who wowed the Indian fans by cashing in on flat pitches in the IPL by batting in the prime opening spot, and still only averages 30?
Cameron White, who fails anytime he has to defend under pressure?
It is not North's fault he can't score run a ball double tons when the rest of the team have failed dismally and we are 6-25.
Gilchrist is about the only player who could do that, ever.
Scoring runs when others do doesn't mean they are worthless.
Yes, he is weak, but the other alternatives are not much better, if at all, and Hussey and Hodge didn't take their chances often enough when they had them and their time is gone now.
Anyway, I just don't think the amount of criticism North cops is fair, he really isn't that bad, and until there is an obvious alternative we should focus on other things like our total inability to take wickets on flat pitches.
Hilfenhaus is overrated, Johnson is useless, Harris and Bollinger just cashed in on friendly pitches and weak opposition and are not as good as their stats suggest, and we don't have a spinner to speak of apart from Hauritz.
Doherty is pure crap, and this will be his last game in the test lineup ever.

Sure, we lost a few Greats, and they are hard to replace, but that just means we are going to have to put up with Average and Mediocre for a while.

It's no reason to start flailing around and flinging baggy green caps in all directions.

Ever heard of a lad called George Bailey?

 

[ChefMan21]

North's last batting performances:
0,20,16,0,0,10,128,3,1

Yep... He's a shining beacon of success..

 

[Covvy]

As for this "bias" against Victorians, what is the basis for this argument?
We have used every bloody crap Victorian bowler apart from Wright in the past 2 years, and Hodge had his chance and blew it with a dreadful tour to India. Check the stats, he averaged about 8 for the series with a strike rate of 50, he blew it.
And David Hussey, all he does is monster crap teams occasionally at domestic level, he is not consistent enough, and has looked overawed at international level in his ODI appearances.
Whining about NSW players getting picked, why? Because Katich, Watson, and Clarke have been our most consistent batsmen for the last few years? And Hauritz has been our best spinner? (5-39 off 27 overs today by the way, doesn't look too crap to me, have Doherty or Holland or Krejza done that at domestic level yet, ever?).
Get a clue, the team sucks, and it is not due to selection.

Firstly, Hodge is Australia's best batsmen to date. Everybody has a bit of a bad run. Secondly, I don't think any domestic sides are really that bad compared to others. Dave Hussey's big scores have been all against respectable opposition.

Ok, who are we going to pick instead of North?
Khawaja, who clearly is not ready, and just piles on runs on a flat SCG?
Smith, who is unbalancing the ODI side with his total lack of contribution with either bat or ball, and is clearly not ready?
Ferguson, who gets to bat on the flattest pitch in the world all the time, and yet still only averages 30?
Shaun Marsh, who wowed the Indian fans by cashing in on flat pitches in the IPL by batting in the prime opening spot, and still only averages 30?
Cameron White, who fails anytime he has to defend under pressure?
It is not North's fault he can't score run a ball double tons when the rest of the team have failed dismally and we are 6-25.
Gilchrist is about the only player who could do that, ever.
Scoring runs when others do doesn't mean they are worthless.
Yes, he is weak, but the other alternatives are not much better, if at all, and Hussey and Hodge didn't take their chances often enough when they had them and their time is gone now.
Anyway, I just don't think the amount of criticism North cops is fair, he really isn't that bad, and until there is an obvious alternative we should focus on other things like our total inability to take wickets on flat pitches.
Hilfenhaus is overrated, Johnson is useless, Harris and Bollinger just cashed in on friendly pitches and weak opposition and are not as good as their stats suggest, and we don't have a spinner to speak of apart from Hauritz.
Doherty is pure crap, and this will be his last game in the test lineup ever.

The recent match against Tasmania says otherwise for Ferguson.

Hodge would very much disagree with that comment.

Not sure if serious?

Covvy added 0 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...

Ever heard of a lad called George Bailey?

Bloody George can get frustuating at some points. Not a very smart player really. Lately he's been getting a great start, but then throwing his wicket away.

 

[TumTum]

Love your signature Covvy. Wonder what the figures for Anderson would have been, 2 wickets and probably 50 odd close calls.

 

[used2bcool]

Not sure why Brad Hodge's name has popped up in the discussion. Pretty sure he has retired from longer formats of cricket and hasn't played an FC match since December 2009.

used2bcool added 5 Minutes and 26 Seconds later...

er there's a whole thread

Care to link, please?

 

[mattfb]

Covvy, he's not a consistently high-scorer, but he's a consistent 30 odd run maker which is the reliability we need at that number 6 now. Much better than North batting 10 balls then getting out.

 

[angryangy]

Care to link, please?

Well this is the twitter sticky in this very sub-forum
http://www.planetcricket.org/forums/ashes-2010-11/ashes-twitter-70987.html

and this is the thread from 3 months ago about KP
http://www.planetcricket.org/forums...tweets-being-dropped-t20-odi-squad-69256.html

 

[War]

3 pacers and 1 ordinary spinner is still a better strategy than 4 pacers.

Only if the spinner is of a certain standard. In which Doherty is not unfortunately.

Look at it this way, even in the worst case scenario where this is no spin on the pitch at all, there is no significant benefit of having 4 pacers. If 3 pacers like the last Test struggle on a docile pitch, the 4th one is not going to make a difference.

Days like Brisbane can happen with a 4-man seam attack, since as i mentioned before. Without a test quality spinner in the 1st place to be a wicket-taking threat on docile/wearing pitches, its useless picking one. But lets not forget just two matches ago on flat Indian deck an almost 4-man attack on similar flattish pitch had that batting line-up in check & almost won that test.

However there is a lot to lose with that strategy:
1. Poor over rates
2. More substitute overs from the part timers
3. Pitch suddenly starts helping the spinners

1. I've mentioned & proved in various other threads on this site, that worry about over-rates with 4-seamers is being over-rated. They are very few examples in the last 15-20 years with teams using all pace attacks, when teams starting taking over-rates seriously & since 2009 when teams started getting fined for it. In which over-rates was a serious problem for any national side.

2. More sub overs from part-timers really depends on the captain's tactics & how often the 4-man attack would bowl out teams cheapy.So this isn't always a definate.

3. Most pitches would on day 5. But if the spinner is as useless as Hauritz (& potentially Doherty as i fear), they wont utilise such condtions on day 5 wearing pitches againts good batting sides. So you might as pick a 4th seamer & if the 4th seamer can reverse-swing the ball (as some of the AUS quicks can), that would make up for not having a quality spinner on flat/wearing pitch.

 

[Slowcoach]

Ok, basically I just wanted to back North for argument's sake, but I still think some of the criticism is unfair.
And War, I know you will never agree, but Hauritz is not useless, and his 5-39 off 27 overs v WA is better than anything any other current spinner has done.
Yes, I do agree that picking a spinner by default is not always wise, because they do not automatically take wickets by default on turning pitches due to being a spinner, BUT, do we really have 4 pace bowlers good enough to go in with an all pace attack?

Slowcoach added 3 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

We should have played Smith in the first test, or at least here, Doherty has no future, the only way we will find out of Smith's spin is good enough is to play him and bowl him.

 

[TumTum]

Only if the spinner is of a certain standard. In which Doherty is not unfortunately.



Days like Brisbane can happen with a 4-man seam attack, since as i mentioned before. Without a test quality spinner in the 1st place to be a wicket-taking threat on docile/wearing pitches, its useless picking one. But lets not forget just two matches ago on flat Indian deck an almost 4-man attack on similar flattish pitch had that batting line-up in check & almost won that test.




1. I've mentioned & proved in various other threads on this site, that worry about over-rates with 4-seamers is being over-rated. They are very few examples in the last 15-20 years with teams using all pace attacks, when teams starting taking over-rates seriously & since 2009 when teams started getting fined for it. In which over-rates was a serious problem for any national side.

2. More sub overs from part-timers really depends on the captain's tactics & how often the 4-man attack would bowl out teams cheapy.So this isn't always a definate.

3. Most pitches would on day 5. But if the spinner is as useless as Hauritz (& potentially Doherty as i fear), they wont utilise such condtions on day 5 wearing pitches againts good batting sides. So you might as pick a 4th seamer & if the 4th seamer can reverse-swing the ball (as some of the AUS quicks can), that would make up for not having a quality spinner on flat/wearing pitch.

Do you include Watson in that 4 man pace attack?

Anyway I agree with all your points, but you still must agree that those points are valid and a real danger. It is just not enough to hope that they don't happen (like it reverses when it spins etc).

TumTum added 8 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

Ok, basically I just wanted to back North for argument's sake, but I still think some of the criticism is unfair.
And War, I know you will never agree, but Hauritz is not useless, and his 5-39 off 27 overs v WA is better than anything any other current spinner has done.
Yes, I do agree that picking a spinner by default is not always wise, because they do not automatically take wickets by default on turning pitches due to being a spinner, BUT, do we really have 4 pace bowlers good enough to go in with an all pace attack?

We definitely do, we could probably make a 6 quality man pace attack. But my argument is if 3 pacers are getting hammered, the 4th one will as well. Spinners provide a completely different style of bowling and you never know when they can play a big part.

We should have played Smith in the first test, or at least here, Doherty has no future, the only way we will find out of Smith's spin is good enough is to play him and bowl him.

Seen him bowl enough, he should improve greatly before playing at Test level again.

TumTum added 9 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

The news is saying that Harris will replace Hilfenhaus