England in India - Oct to Jan 2012/13

[swacker]

Well it seems like this has been pretty dire. A good wake up call anyway, disappointing from the batsmen though.

 

[Owzat]

But this # 7 spot still is a bit off an issue.

I still maintain Swann is worth a go at #7. If it is quick bashing he's proven capable of it, quite often gets stranded batting #9 or #10 in Tests.

Swann (Tests, 9-11 only)

#9 : 32 inns, ave 27.17 (50 x5, no x3)
#10 : 14 inns, ave 26.11 (50 x0, no x5)
#11 : 1 inns, ave n/a (3no)

He's been left not out in 10 of his 29 innings batting #9 in ODIs, he is capable and worth a try. If Broad and/or Bresnan are then below him that leaves some back up. If he's expected to score 100s then I think that's too big an ask of anyone batting #7, but he's capable of quick or more structured 50s.

Unless we have someone like a Flintoff who can average over 25 with bat and under 33 with ball then I can't see who there is. If we put a proper batsman or the keeper at seven then we either have a bit-part fifth bowler or have to find a bowler capable of batting top six which is the Flintoff scenario again. We've tried all-sorts, including Patel and Shight. About time we looked at the players we have, Swann is an obvious candidate. It doesn't work, we're no worse off than we are now.

 

[War]

I still maintain Swann is worth a go at #7. If it is quick bashing he's proven capable of it, quite often gets stranded batting #9 or #10 in Tests.

Swann (Tests, 9-11 only)

#9 : 32 inns, ave 27.17 (50 x5, no x3)
#10 : 14 inns, ave 26.11 (50 x0, no x5)
#11 : 1 inns, ave n/a (3no)

He's been left not out in 10 of his 29 innings batting #9 in ODIs, he is capable and worth a try. If Broad and/or Bresnan are then below him that leaves some back up. If he's expected to score 100s then I think that's too big an ask of anyone batting #7, but he's capable of quick or more structured 50s.

Unless we have someone like a Flintoff who can average over 25 with bat and under 33 with ball then I can't see who there is. If we put a proper batsman or the keeper at seven then we either have a bit-part fifth bowler or have to find a bowler capable of batting top six which is the Flintoff scenario again. We've tried all-sorts, including Patel and Shight. About time we looked at the players we have, Swann is an obvious candidate. It doesn't work, we're no worse off than we are now.

Hmm i don't know that i'd want to play Swann as high as # 7 in odi's. While he certainly can bat, i don't think he his bat is solid enough or he has the mental responsibility to bat long enough in that key role before his superior aggressive instincts take over.

I'm happy with him as a luxury hitting options down the order.

I personally think that Peter Trego for the last season or so has been the best possible seam-bowling all-rounder to could fill that # 7 role competently for England, much better than woakes, bresnan.

England need at least 5 strong bowlers in odi's - with a luxury 6th option. Most of the great odi's team in history operate with this balance.

So i'm thinking when Trott returns he may have to be sacrificed & Patel should be given more batting responsiblity in ODIs. Also Kieswetter although im a big fan is still a bit hit & miss & if he doesn't come big in the final 3 odi's then bairstow or buttler will have to be seriously considered to take over as odi keeper.

So best ENG ODI TEAM:

Cook
Bell
KP
Bairstow
Morgan
Patel
Trego
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn

Trott
Dernbach/Meaker
Hales/Buttler
Woakes

 

[Owzat]

The #7 doesn't need to be making 100s, if he does need to then the problems lie deeper than who is batting there as he'd be in way too early (even off 70 balls he'd still need to be in by about over 30)

Swann is capable of lusty blows, making 50s and also digging in if necessary. He bats well with the lower order, and with whoever might be left of the top order, and scores at a decent rate. I don't know what you are expecting from a #7, an ODI #7 is not the same as in Tests by any stretch.

Why keep digging around for this "perfect #7" when we've not found one before and someone like Swann is capable of scoring the volume of runs at the speed necessary for the role.................?!?!?!? What we don't need is someone who mostly makes 5-15 runs and gets out, what we need is someone who can mostly make 20s and 30s. Having someone much better bat than that down the order is a waste and unlikely to come with the necessary bowling ability.

Gotta love the daft nature of cricinfo sometimes, suggesting Bopara could be the all-rounder the ODI side needs

England in India 2012-13 : Ravi Bopara worth bearing in mind | Cricket Features | India v England | ESPN Cricinfo

Focuses too much on ER and not enough on taking wickets. Like the way they cite strike rates and "against Bangladesh" as if that is compelling evidence! An ODI average of 30 is ok, a bowling average of 37 is ok for a sixth bowler. That's not to say he doesn't have his moments, but not enough that a lot of attacks won't just see him as a sixth bowler and that's dangerous to include as the fifth. Swann, Bresnan, Broad, Anderson and whoever would be adequate batting and about our best bowling.




As for the last ODI, how second string was our attack? Finn, Dernbach, Woakes, Patel, Tredwell, Root, which of those is likely to feature in our strongest side?

 

[Aalay]

The curator has been quoted as saying he expects the side batting first to make around 350 on the "sporting wicket".

The very honest opinion.

 

[sifter132]

Focuses too much on ER and not enough on taking wickets. Like the way they cite strike rates and "against Bangladesh" as if that is compelling evidence! An ODI average of 30 is ok, a bowling average of 37 is ok for a sixth bowler. That's not to say he doesn't have his moments, but not enough that a lot of attacks won't just see him as a sixth bowler and that's dangerous to include as the fifth. Swann, Bresnan, Broad, Anderson and whoever would be adequate batting and about our best bowling.

It seems you've just made the mirror argument in the first part of your post - where you'd consider Swann for #7 based on his quick scoring rather than his ability to make big scores or general run making ability. To me that's the equivalent of picking a 5th bowler based on economy rate rather than wicket taking ability.

I've come to the opinion that unless your 5th bowler is good enough to consistently take wickets unassisted (a rare specimen), then you might as well pick the economical option - or play 5 bowlers/bowling all-rounders. ie. once you get to the 20 over point and if your 4 main bowlers haven't done anything to that point, you're basically going to be relying batsmen error if you're expecting the 5th bowler to come on and take wickets. At that point I'd rather have a decent batsman that will consistently take his 0/50 without fuss and you can attack with the other 4, or just concede that you'll be chasing a lot and just hope to stem the flow. If captains REALLY want a wicket in the middle overs, try and buy one. eg. throw the ball to a part timer (David Warner's leg spin is a good Aussie example) or bring the field up and play to the batsman's ego.

There's not many players that can bat well enough and take wickets consistently. Watson, Shakib and Kallis are the obvious examples, and even Shakib's game is built more on containment rather than strike rate.

 

[Haarithan]

Kieswetter's literally England's Rohit Sharma. Useless. Please go home and enjoy watching 'Suits'

 

[cerande]

So many batsmen threw their wickets.Morgan's shot was horrible and Kieswetter is just bad.
Jadeja's armball worked like a charm.This pitch might not be excellent for batting but this target is highly achievable.

 

[Warner Watson]

England are just outclassed by Indian Bowlers.but the match is still on..India need 156 runs to win when they come bat.game is still on.

 

[Gurjot95]

I started watching Lords of the Rings half an hour before the match started, decided to watch the rest of innings after the movie ends and well the innings unexpectecdly ended pretty early before the movie so wasn't able to catch the innings but still worth it!

 

[Epic]

Kohli back among on the runs, keep it going, boy.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

glad to see kohli scoring again, the last thing india needed was to see him fall into a slump. he really needed to assert himself because he's very quickly moving into the role of leader for the indian batting effort. plus it's nice his average has ticked back over 50.

 

[Epic]

Did I just see what I think I saw? Ball hitting the stumps, off the bat and still going to the boundary, only Dhoni man.

 

[swacker]

Get Prior and his beard back in.

 

[cerande]

Don't know about Prior but Craig K has to go.Maybe Butler?