England National football team thread

[Lee1981]

And Rooney as the "1".

Why..?

What is it that he has done in the last 8 years in an England shirt to warrant that position,?

He brings nothing to the team, except lucky goals and luck always runs out.

Give Defoe a run in the team, and for god sake keep Welbeck well away from the squad, awful player.!

Won't be long till sir Alex realises

 

[ste_mc_efc]

32 goals in 78 games isn't a terrible record.

playing him as the "1" up front is a terrible idea though.

 

[Lee1981]

Take euro 2004 out of it, how often has he scored important goals??

Crouchy gets a hammering that most of his goals have come against rubbish opposition, well at least half of Rooneys tally have to be against crap opposition also.

But because he is our supposed "world class player" he goes under the radar, his prime has gone and we need to start looking for an alternative option, and for me give Defoe a long run in the side.!

 

[War]

.playing him as the "1" up front is a terrible idea though.

I got this terrible idea of playing him their from Sir Alex Ferguson. Who has played him in that position vs Cruj in the champions league, newcastle in the league and league cup and he didn't look out of place.

 

[puddleduck]

@War

Have you considered that the fact that the media/fans still seem to prioritise breakneck end-to-end football with dangerous tackles considered acceptable if some of the ball gets played a bigger reason for people tiring and getting injured. Protect our technically gifted players rather than try and turn them all into box-to-box players, and we might find that helps more than a mid-winter break.

You'll notice that Silva was perfectly fit enough to go to the Euros. That Mata was fit enough for the Olympics etc... Our players need to learn that falling over is part of maintaining possession, as well as the fans needing to realise that football is a very different game to the strange 80's interpretation that so many still seem to think is the pinnacle.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

I got this terrible idea of playing him their from Sir Alex Ferguson. Who has played him in that position vs Cruj in the champions league, newcastle in the league and league cup and he didn't look out of place.

he played in midfield against newcastle not as the forward. And their formation isn't 3-5-1-1 either, so it's no really comparable anyway.

 

[War]

he played in midfield against newcastle not as the forward. And their formation isn't 3-5-1-1 either, so it's no really comparable anyway.

I never said the formation vs Newcastle was 3-5-1-1. The 3-5-1-1/3-5-2 (however it is structured) is a formation is suggested England could play in the future for reasons i stated on the previous page.


The formation United used vs Newcastle, was a 4-3-1-2 Italy like formation and Rooney played as the "1" behind RVP/Welbeck, like Montolivo (spell check) plays for the Azzuri.

----------

@War

Have you considered that the fact that the media/fans still seem to prioritise breakneck end-to-end football with dangerous tackles considered acceptable if some of the ball gets played a bigger reason for people tiring and getting injured. Protect our technically gifted players rather than try and turn them all into box-to-box players, and we might find that helps more than a mid-winter break.

You'll notice that Silva was perfectly fit enough to go to the Euros. That Mata was fit enough for the Olympics etc... Our players need to learn that falling over is part of maintaining possession, as well as the fans needing to realise that football is a very different game to the strange 80's interpretation that so many still seem to think is the pinnacle.

Well i'm not a medical expert, so i don't know if that English style of football has been directly responsible for the tiring and injuries of our players. Although it certainly sounds plausible.

Only thing i'd say is that in the last decade expect for Chelsea (who are now changing) most of the top premier league teams style hasn't been the traditional way. Arsenal have always been said to be the Barca of the english game. Liverpool when Alonso was around and now under Rogers are playing a technical game. United with Scholes and City with Silva/Nasri.

 

[StinkyBoHoon]

Only thing i'd say is that in the last decade expect for Chelsea (who are now changing) most of the top premier league teams style hasn't been the traditional way. Arsenal have always been said to be the Barca of the english game. Liverpool when Alonso was around and now under Rogers are playing a technical game. United with Scholes and City with Silva/Nasri.

this was actually the crux of the post I deleted. the english top clubs have varying european mentalities which makes taking the english parts of each team and trying to slot them as bits of a jigsaw into an english national team very difficult.

perhaps it's not that england has to many foreign players in its league but that it relies on too many foreign managers.

ok, a lot of national teams have players from all over the world but all spanish/italian/german etc players were all brought up with common ethos.

in italy, there are two foreign managers (and zeman almost doesn't count, having lived in italy since the 60s and coached almost exclusively there) in germany there is 3, in france there is 1, in spain there is... well there is 8, (although it should be noted that 5 of them are south americans with a similar ethos) in holland there is 1.

in england, there are only 4 english managers in the whole league. you could bung in home nation managers to make the total much more respectable, however for the most part, they're all absent from the top clubs. Only Man U has had a home nation manager for any length of time. liverpool have one now but after extended periods under french and spanish systems that's not a common state of affairs.


I think as puddleduck points out, plenty of english based players were fine fitness wise, to play in the Euros, Balotelli was one of the stars for example, it's a bit hard to blame the lack of a winter break in light of that.

however, I also think, looking back, england have always been a QF team, you need an exceptional batch of players to rise out of that. spain have that just now, germany look like they're getting there, but without those special players even the greatest teams slip back. Look at france, they didn't replace Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Desailly, those guys were at the very top of the game when france were winning world cups, without them they're just alright. Germany will need Oezil and Gotze to become stunningly good players if they want to topple spain. Good as gerard, rooney and the like are, everyone knows in their heart they're not among the absolute elite of world football.

 

[War]

Take euro 2004 out of it, how often has he scored important goals??

Crouchy gets a hammering that most of his goals have come against rubbish opposition, well at least half of Rooneys tally have to be against crap opposition also.

But because he is our supposed "world class player" he goes under the radar, his prime has gone and we need to start looking for an alternative option, and for me give Defoe a long run in the side.!

Well its not Rooney's fault that the opposition England have had to face in world cup 2006 qualification, euro 08 qualification, wc 2010 qualification, euro 2012 qualification nor the ongoing wc 2014 qualifiers - haven't the notable big name European countries. Fact is England haven't faced a big boy in qualifying for a tournament, since Italy en route to world cup 1998.

Rooney has always been in top form in qualifiers (except wc 2006 qualifiers), but for reasons well documented due to faults of his own or otherwise he has not repeated in the major tournaments.

Tournament qualifiers do count although its not as "prestigious" as the big tournaments. Some of these mid-level EURO teams as we have seen vs Ukraine and Poland are difficult games and key Rooney performances in such games in the past have been important to getting past these teams.

That's been the strange enigma of Rooney's international record. Along with in some games like the Poland one, where is first touch and passing looks so horrible you wonder how such a obvious top-class player can do that.

Frustration towards him in an England shirt is understandable. But presuming in all likelihood, he has another two excellent seasons for United and aiding England in getting their world cup qualifying campaign back in control. We can just hope this time, no outside factors doesn't curtail his tournament performance.

Since if England get to Brazil, a fit and firing Rooney will be key if England want to get far. This basic fact will never change.

 

[War]

this was actually the crux of the post I deleted. the english top clubs have varying european mentalities which makes taking the english parts of each team and trying to slot them as bits of a jigsaw into an english national team very difficult.

perhaps it's not that england has to many foreign players in its league but that it relies on too many foreign managers.

ok, a lot of national teams have players from all over the world but all spanish/italian/german etc players were all brought up with common ethos.

in italy, there are two foreign managers (and zeman almost doesn't count, having lived in italy since the 60s and coached almost exclusively there) in germany there is 3, in france there is 1, in spain there is... well there is 8, (although it should be noted that 5 of them are south americans with a similar ethos) in holland there is 1.

in england, there are only 4 english managers in the whole league. you could bung in home nation managers to make the total much more respectable, however for the most part, they're all absent from the top clubs. Only Man U has had a home nation manager for any length of time. liverpool have one now but after extended periods under french and spanish systems that's not a common state of affairs.


I think as puddleduck points out, plenty of english based players were fine fitness wise, to play in the Euros, Balotelli was one of the stars for example, it's a bit hard to blame the lack of a winter break in light of that.

however, I also think, looking back, england have always been a QF team, you need an exceptional batch of players to rise out of that. spain have that just now, germany look like they're getting there, but without those special players even the greatest teams slip back. Look at france, they didn't replace Zidane, Henry, Trezeguet, Desailly, those guys were at the very top of the game when france were winning world cups, without them they're just alright. Germany will need Oezil and Gotze to become stunningly good players if they want to topple spain. Good as gerard, rooney and the like are, everyone knows in their heart they're not among the absolute elite of world football.

Ye excellent point about the foreign managers in the league and i guess this is where the opening of St.George's park, will soon be aiding in producing more English coaches. Since it has been highlighted many times before in the media, that England have the lowest uefa licensed coaches amongst the top euro nations.

With regards to how the foreign stars in the league, especially @ the major English clubs (Arsenal, City,Utd, chelsea, liverpool) in the last decade, who regularly are involved in title battles, champions league. They at least come into the English league from their countries which have breaks or far less competitions.

So although they too would be subjected to the same toil of the English players from those major clubs - they wouldn't have had to deal with is for as many years as the Gerrards, Lampards, Rooney etc. Guys like Vieira, Henry, Fabregas, Alonso, Ballack etc etc etc had their time in the league, but still left.

Finally yea ENG this era has been @ best a QF team - no question about it. Although better referee decisions should have seen at least a semi-final place @ euro 2004 ha.

 

[War]

England manager Roy Hodgson looks to the future as he prepares to call up Raheem Sterling and Steven Caulker - Telegraph

Key point:

Hodgson declared himself disappointed with the passing ability of England?s 30-year-old central defenders Phil Jagielka and ? in particular ? Joleon Lescott after last week?s World Cup qualifier away to Poland which ended in a 1-1 draw.
?At the back, our two centre-backs, Joleon in particular, didn?t have a good moment on the ball,? Hodgson admitted. ?He gave the ball away, that?s pretty obvious.?
With John Terry retired from international football and Rio Ferdinand continually overlooked it means that there is an opportunity for Jones and Smalling ? as well as Caulker ? to stake claims. Hodgson said he hoped they can ?start to put a few people under pressure?.

 

[ste_mc_efc]

when jagielka comes back from international duty he starts thinking he is beckenbauer for everton too.

he's not that good on the ball. stop trying to mold him to play in a way he can't. if he doesn't suit the team don't play him. or pick one suited to the best players available.

 

[War]

when jagielka comes back from international duty he starts thinking he is beckenbauer for everton too.

he's not that good on the ball. stop trying to mold him to play in a way he can't. if he doesn't suit the team don't play him. or pick one suited to the best players available.

Ye true that's not his game. But i guess like any coach Hodgson is picking Jaigelka in the case of meritocracy. He was back-up to Terry/Ferdinand for years and now both of them are gone, he is getting his chance for England.

But at this rate, he and Lescott will be phased out before the qualifiers are over.

 

[Lee1981]

But at this rate, he and Lescott will be phased out before the qualifiers are over.

This cannot happen soon enough.

Neither of them are international class

 

[Auwais]

Well its not Rooney's fault that the opposition England have had to face in world cup 2006 qualification, euro 08 qualification, wc 2010 qualification, euro 2012 qualification nor the ongoing wc 2014 qualifiers - haven't the notable big name European countries. Fact is England haven't faced a big boy in qualifying for a tournament, since Italy en route to world cup 1998.

Rooney has always been in top form in qualifiers (except wc 2006 qualifiers), but for reasons well documented due to faults of his own or otherwise he has not repeated in the major tournaments.

Tournament qualifiers do count although its not as "prestigious" as the big tournaments. Some of these mid-level EURO teams as we have seen vs Ukraine and Poland are difficult games and key Rooney performances in such games in the past have been important to getting past these teams.

That's been the strange enigma of Rooney's international record. Along with in some games like the Poland one, where is first touch and passing looks so horrible you wonder how such a obvious top-class player can do that.

Frustration towards him in an England shirt is understandable. But presuming in all likelihood, he has another two excellent seasons for United and aiding England in getting their world cup qualifying campaign back in control. We can just hope this time, no outside factors doesn't curtail his tournament performance.

Since if England get to Brazil, a fit and firing Rooney will be key if England want to get far. This basic fact will never change.

Rooney's an excellent player but is he the type of player you can build a team around?

His best form (in his best position, behind the striker) came when he played alongside Ronaldo and he's been very good this season when working in tandem with RvP. He seems to play with far more freedom when he has someone of similar calibre alongside him, rather than when he is the one being relied on for creativity or goals.

I think he's too streaky a player to make the centre piece of your team, the best case in point being in the 2009/10 when he was played as a poacher up top and scored plenty of goals but still went 18 hours without scoring for Utd or England at one point.

But it's not like there are any suitable alternatives to him in the England setup at the moment.