Insomniac
Title Recipient
Assuming the Tri-Series took place, if Pakistan and SL recorded wins (assuming all teams play each other once) SA would have dropped to 7th..Given their form. It doesn't surprise me
ICC Champions Trophy 2009
- Thread starter Kiko_97
- Start date
Themer
Chairman of Selectors
You are so naive to think that the media only reports the bad things.
Insomniac
Title Recipient
Oho, I'm naive am I?
Please tell me how often do you see a positive story about Pakistan and Afghanistan in the international news?
And its nice to see you've avoided my point above. I see you're standing down, and finally using common sense in your posts.
Let me give you an example of a positive news story - Afghanistan cricket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLuI9546l3Q
Did you ever hear about this? I doubt it.
sohum
Executive member
So basically is this you admitting that your whole ATP-CA argument was wrong?
Insomniac
Title Recipient
There's 2 ways to look at it. One, I was wrong about the ATP canceling it, so if you want to look at it this way, go ahead. Whatever makes you sleep at night.
However, the ATP did accept (and I'm decently sure) that Bangalore is not a safe city for Tennis (which is crap by the way, it is fine).
The ATP being as professional of an organization as the CA is the interesting point however. The ATP accepted, or agreed that Bangalore was not safe to host the tournament. I don't see where they're saying that Bangalore is safe.
The analogy is still there, because the ATP accepted it wasn't safe (which again, is utter crap, unless Indian security forces have become really bad in the past few years, Bangalore is safe for Cricket and Tennis).
But now if the ATP isn't playing in Bangalore, shouldn't the CA not send an Australian team?
Oh I'm sorry, it seems Lalit Modi is controlling the players' minds with money. While the IPL is a great thing, people like Symonds will chase the money. If they were asked to play in Afghanistan or Iraq, and were paid what, $100,000 per run they made (or some other extreme number), I think they'll be packing their bags right now.
There are a few honest people in world cricket today, MacGill is one of them, who unfortunately retired. I respect those players with open minds, but when you have people like Pietersen who start yelling at the ICC when they first walk in to discuss the security arrangements, I'm afraid there's some problems.
Can you not deny Sohum, that Australia never had an open mind? Especially having decided 2 months prior (by telling the ICC) that they will not go to Pakistan.
You know what the PCB should do in retribution? One week before touring SA or Australia, start questioning the security there. I can guarantee, you're more likely to be killed, *****, or assaulted in South Africa than dieing in a bomb blast in Pakistan.
Themer
Chairman of Selectors
No I wasn't backing down in the sense I've changed my mind I just don't see the point in arguing constantly with someone like yourself who just can't admit that Pakistan isn't safe.
Insomniac
Title Recipient
And you can't admit that the players were never open-minded about touring Pakistan?
I live here, I know what goes on here. Have you even ever been to Pakistan?
Please, give me a break. Tell me Themer, why the security analysts hired by the ICC deemed Pakistan as safe, while a guy who makes a 2 day visit decides Pakistan is not safe because cricket is a western sport.
Can you please tell me the logic in that?
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sohum
Executive member
Notice how I respond to your points below, whereas you tend to ignore my comments based on your arguments and a few posts later reiterate them as if I never disproved them.
Accepting a decision is very different from making a decision. As I have already said, with no one organizing the tournament, the ATP really has no control whatsoever. They cannot force a commercial company to host a tournament. All they can do is follow their policy, which seems like the prize money is donated to the retired players fund.
They're not saying Bangalore is unsafe either. The ATP never made any public statements or positions, as far as I am aware, that Bangalore was unsafe for international tennis. The only comment they've made on the incident, and one that I quoted from several different news sources on a previous page, was that it is unfortunate that the local organizers brought a petition to scrap the tournament, and that they would donate the money to the retirement fund. No where do they say it is unfortunate that Bangalore is unsafe or that terrorism has taken over the city.
Read above. And your analogy is incorrect. It would be correct if the BCCI (or the local sponsor of the tournament) pulled out their funding on the grounds of safety and then CA followed suit. If CA didn't follow suit and toured anyway, then I would take another look at your argument.
The ATP isn't playing anywhere. Read all the points above and my rebuttals. Your conclusion makes no sense based on the points you have described. It seems a lack of sponsors and a lack of star players as well as the minor threat of terrorism forced this tennis tournament to be cancelled. Most of these are not going to be problems in an India-Australia cricket series. And the minor threat of terrorism--well it seems to me that this is the only major (or one of the only) blight on Bangalore's security in the last few decades.
This has no relevance to anything. And I think (and I think most senior members on this forum would agree) that no cricketer in their right mind would go to Afghanistan on the lure of money. If you think the Australian team did not go to Pakistan because of money that Lalit Modi is evidently going to give them (a complete formation of your imagination, it seems) then I think you will find that you are on a sinking ship. The reason they're going to India and not to Pakistan is because they feel they are safer there than they would be in Pakistan.
Nothing to do with the topic I'm discussion so I'm going to ignore.
I have not taken a position either way. This seems like one argument that you keep coming back to and I have absolutely no interest in it. Like I have said, the only think I'm picking is your argument that India and Bangalore is unsafe, brought together by an inaccurate argument based around the Bangalore Open.
Unfortunately, your guarantee isn't worth a dime when it comes to Pakistan touring those countries. And I am sure that if you ask members of your own team, they will agree with me.
On another note, this sub-topic is getting large enough to warrant a separate topic (probably in the General Chat forum since it is only loosely Cricket Discussion).
Themer
Chairman of Selectors
No I have never been to Pakistan and as I've said before that makes no difference whatsoever.
I have no idea why that security analysts hired by the ICC deemed it safe how can somewhere where this has happened be considered safe is beyond me has he not see the new, oh no god forbid him reading the news that only reports the "bad things".
* January 10 24 people were killed and 73 injured in a suicide attack when the policemen were deliberately targeted outside Lahore High Court before the scheduled lawyer's protest against the government in provincial capital of Lahore. This attack was first of its kind in Lahore since the start of War on Terrorism.[154]
* January 14 At least 10 people were killed and over 50 wounded when a bomb exploded in Quaidabad. The bomb was planted on a bicycle and it went off during wee hours in a vegetable market in Karachi.[155]
* January 17 At least 12 people were killed and 25 others injured, three of them critically, when a suicide bomber blew himself up at the crowded Mirza Qasim Baig Imambargah in Mohalla Janghi, Kohati in the NWFP capital city of Peshawar.[156]
* February 4 At least 10 people were killed and 27 others injured, when a suicide bomber crashed his bike into an armed forces bus carrying students and officials of Army Medical College, near the General Headquarters in Rawalpindi.[157]
* February 9 At least 25 people died and 35 were injured after a powerful explosion hit an opposition election rally in Charsadda in the north-western Pakistan. The attack targeted ANP, a secular party, one of whose leaders, Fazal-ur-Rehman Atakhail, was assassinated February 7 in Karachi triggering widespread protests. Possible conspirators of the latest attack could be the Islamist Taliban-al-Qaeda nexus operating in the northwestern Pakistan.[158]
Main article: 2008 Charsadda bombing
* February 11 A suicide attack on a public meeting in Miranshah, North Waziristan left at least eight people dead and a dozen wounded, including a candidate for the National Assembly. It was the second attack on ANP's election gathering in two days.[159]
* February 16 A suicide bomber rammed his explosive-laden vehicle on the election meeting of Pakistan Peoples Party, the party of the slain former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto in Parachinar, Kurram Agency in northwestern Pakistan. The attack left at least 47 people dead and 150 injured according to Interior Ministry of Pakistan. It was the fourth such attack on PPP's political workers within a year; two of them targeting the former PPP leader Benazir Bhutto.[160]
Main article: 2008 Parachinar bombing
* February 18 At least 24 people were killed and nearly 200 were injured in election-related violence across the country on the eve of Pakistani general election, Aaj TV reported.[161]
* February 22 A roadside bomb near the town of Matta, Swat District, NWFP killed at least 13 members of a wedding party and left about a dozen injured. An army spokesman said the bomb had been detonated by remote control. Women and children were among the casualties.[162]
* February 25 Pakistan Army's top medic Lt Gen Mushtaq Baig was killed, along with the driver and security guard, when a suicide attack ripped apart the vehicle he was traveling in at 2:45pm local time near Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi. At least 5 other passersby were also killed and 20 injured in the incident. Gen Baig was the highest ranking officer to be killed in Pakistan since the 9/11 attacks.[163]
* February 29 As many as 38 people were killed and 75 injured when a suicide bomber blew himself up in Mingora, Swat District on Friday during the funeral of a senior police officer who had been killed hours earlier in Lakki Marwat in southern part of NWFP. The police DSP was killed along with three other policemen when their vehicle was hit in a roadside bomb earlier in the day. Witnesses said the suicide attack took place when a police party was presenting a gun salute in honor of the slain police officer in a school ground in Mingora town at about 8pm.[164]
* March 2 At least 42 people were killed and 58 injured in a suicide attack, when the bomber struck the meeting of tribal elders and local officials in the town of Darra Adam Khel, a few miles south of Peshawar. The town of Darra was the center of violent clashes earlier in January when the militants took over the Kohat Tunnel that connected Peshawar with Kohat. After the onslaught of security forces to take back the tunnel, the fighting resulted in the deaths of 13 troops and 70 militants.[165]
* March 4 Eight persons were killed and 24 others injured when two suicide bombers blew themselves up in the parking area of the Pakistan Navy War College located in the city of Lahore. It was the first time a Pakistani naval institution was targeted by the militants (Army has been targeted at least eight times outside the war zone and Air Force twice) since the ongoing War on Terrorism in Pakistan in general and post-Lal Masjid siege in particular. This attack on War College was carried out by two suicide attackers, the first one to clear the way for the second one; and the second one to do the damage.[166]
* March 11 At least 24 people were killed and more than 200 wounded in twin suicide bombings in the eastern Pakistani city of Lahore. One of the attacks ripped apart Federal Investigation Agency building killing 21, including 16 policemen. The other one hit the posh locality of Model Town, exploding close to Bilawal House, associated with PPP leaders Benazir Bhutto and her husband Asif Ali Zardari.[167]
* March 15 An attack occurred when a bomb was hurled over a wall surrounding an Islamabad restaurant. Four of the 12 people wounded in the bombing were U.S. FBI agents. In addition to wounding the agents, the explosion killed a Turkish woman and wounded a fifth American, three Pakistanis, a person from the United Kingdom and someone from Japan.[168]
* March 16 At least 20 people were killed in a missile strike in the tribal area of South Waziristan.[169]
[edit] April - September
* April 9 Riots in Karachi kill 9 people and wound many others with 40 vehicles getting torched after two groups of lawyers scuffle that begin after PML-Q leaders, former CM Sindh Arbab Ghulam Rahim and former federal minister Sher Afgan Niazi are maltreated ahead of government formation in the provinces of Sindh and Punjab.[170]
* April 17 At least 20 people were killed and dozens others injured in the clashes between two belligerent factions in Khyber Agency.[171]
* May 6 At least four people have been killed in a suspected suicide attack in Bannu, amid signs a truce with militants may be breaking down, negotiations for which was started in March.[172]
* May 18 A bomb attack targeting the Army's Punjab Regimental Center market in the city of Mardan killed at least 13 people, including four soldiers and injured more than 20. This was the second attack in Mardan in a month after a car bomb on April 25 killed three and injured 26 people.[173]
* May 19 At least four people were killed and another two injured in a remote-controlled bomb blast outside a mosque in the Mamond tehsil of Bajaur Agency.[174]
* May 26 Seven people were killed and five others injured in what appeared to be incidents of sectarian violence in Dera Ismail Khan.[175]
* June 2 The Danish embassy in Islamabad is attacked with a car bomb killing six people. A post purportedly from Al-Qaeda's Mustafa Abu al-Yazid appears on the Internet a day after the attack claiming responsibility. The statement mentions the publication of "insulting drawings" and the refusal to "apologize for publishing them" referring to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy.[176]
Main article: 2008 Danish embassy bombing
* June 9 Sufi Muhammad, leader of the TNSM, on Monday survived a remote-controlled bombing initiated by local Taliban in Peshawar, in which four policemen got injured.[177]
* June 16 A bomb blast inside a Shia mosque killed at least four people and wounded two others in Dera Ismail Khan.[178]
* July 6 A suicide bomber killed 19 people in an attack targeting policemen deployed at a rally observing the first year anniversary of an army raid on the capital’s Lal Masjid.[179]
Main article: 2008 Lal Masjid bombing
* July 7 A string of small explosions, apparently from bombs, wounded at least 37 people in Karachi, rattling Pakistan a day after a deadly suicide attack in Islamabad.[180]
* August 2 At least eight police and security workers were killed when a remote-controlled bomb exploded near their vehicle in Mingora, Swat.[181]
* July 31 - August 4 A total of 136 people were killed in Swat Valley in a week of fighting between the security forces and pro-Taliban militants. The casualties included at least 94 militants, 14 soldiers and around 28 civilians.[182]
* August 9 Militants stormed a police post in village Kingargalai of the Buner District on Friday night, killing eight policemen.[183]
* August 12 A bomb targeting a Pakistani Air Force bus carrying personnel from a military base killed 13 people and wounded 11 others on Tuesday on a major road near the center of Peshawar. Taliban forces reportedly took responsibility. The attack was seen as retaliation for Pakistani airstrikes in Bajaur Agency, a militant stronghold near the border with Afghanistan. Five of the dead were air force personnel and the eight others were bystanders.[184]
* August 13 Eight people, including two policemen, were killed and over 20, including 12 policemen, were injured after an alleged suicide bomber blew himself up n ear a police station in Lahore on the eve of Independence Day celebrations.[185] On the same day, six people were killed and 19 others, four of them policemen, were injured in explosions in Hub and Uthal, a hand-grenade attack in Panjgur and shooting incidents in Kharan and Turbat towns in Balochistan,[186] while leader of the banned outfit Amr Bil Maroof Wa Nahi Anil Munkar Haji Namdar was shot dead when he was delivering sermon in Bara tehsil.[187] Haji Namdar had earlier escaped a suicide attack on 1 May, 2008 in which 17 people were injured.[188]
* August 7 - August 18 Clashes mainly between the Toori and Bangash tribes, but which involved other local tribes, in the Kurram Agency left at least 287 people dead and 373 injured in 12 consecutive days of fighting. In the later incidents, pro-Taliban militants were involved too, after which the local tribesmen asked the government to flush out the militants.[189]
* August 19 32 people, seven policemen and two health officials among them, were killed and 55 others injured when a suicide bomber blew himself up near the emergency ward of the District Headquarters Hospital in Dera Ismail Khan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed responsibility for the attack.[190]
* August 21 70 people were killed and 67 others injured when two suicide bombers blew themselves up outside the gates of the state run Pakistan Ordnance Factory near Islamabad. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed responsibility for the attack.[191]
Main article: 2008 Wah bombing
* August 23 20 people were killed when a suicide bomber rammed a explosive-laden car into a police station in Charbagh Tehsil of Swat valley of North West Frontier Province. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed responsibility for the attack.[192]
* August 25 10 people were killed in a rocket attack targeting the house of a local member of provincial assembly (MPA) in Swat valley in North West Frontier Province. As a result of the attack, MPA Waqar Ahmed's brother and other family members were killed. [193]
* August 27 7 people were killed and 20 others were injured in a bomb explosion outside a street cafe in outskirts of Islamabad. [194]
* August 28 9 people were killed and 15 others were injured in a bomb attack targeting a polive van in the Bannu area of North West Frontier Province. [195]
How you can expect people to come to a country completely open minded if this is whats happened? Theres being open minded and theres being reckless going would have been reckless.
Pakistan next year in my opinion will be alot safer as I think that given a year then the political climate in Pakistan will be more stable and the country more stable but currently it isn't, get over it.
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Insomniac
Title Recipient
And are sportsmen targetted in there?
Look, you are a stubborn character.
If Pakistan was so unsafe, why did MacGill come out and say Pakistan was safe for cricket. Why is Geoff Lawson in Pakistan? Why is David (physio) in Pakistan? Why did the Asia Cup go without a problem - a major 6 team tournament?
Look, you are YET to tell me why a major security company determined Pakistan as safe for cricket, having spent nearly a month in the country, while a random guy from CA stays for 2 days, and the ONLY excuse he can find is that cricket is a western sport and therefore could be targetted.
Let me tell you something - in Pakistan cricket is regarded as an international sport, not a "western" sport.
Please, me, you, and sohum can argue all we want, but the fact is that a security team that spent nearly a month in Pakistan said it is safe for cricket and the security arrangements are brilliant, while one guy from CA comes for 2 days and says that cricket is a western sport and therefore could be targetted.
Please explain that.
And Sohum, I concede defeat on that point, however does it help when the ICC task force walks into the room and all Pietersen does is start yelling without even letting them start?
Honestly, if the ICC Champions Trophy doesn't go ahead in Pakistan in 2009, expect a major split in world cricket.
Look, you are a stubborn character.
If Pakistan was so unsafe, why did MacGill come out and say Pakistan was safe for cricket. Why is Geoff Lawson in Pakistan? Why is David (physio) in Pakistan? Why did the Asia Cup go without a problem - a major 6 team tournament?
Look, you are YET to tell me why a major security company determined Pakistan as safe for cricket, having spent nearly a month in the country, while a random guy from CA stays for 2 days, and the ONLY excuse he can find is that cricket is a western sport and therefore could be targetted.
Let me tell you something - in Pakistan cricket is regarded as an international sport, not a "western" sport.
Please, me, you, and sohum can argue all we want, but the fact is that a security team that spent nearly a month in Pakistan said it is safe for cricket and the security arrangements are brilliant, while one guy from CA comes for 2 days and says that cricket is a western sport and therefore could be targetted.
Please explain that.
And Sohum, I concede defeat on that point, however does it help when the ICC task force walks into the room and all Pietersen does is start yelling without even letting them start?
Honestly, if the ICC Champions Trophy doesn't go ahead in Pakistan in 2009, expect a major split in world cricket.
smssia0112
Chairman of Selectors
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2005
And if 2 days told him that it wasn't safe, as well as extensive research, then how unsafe would it be to be there for a month.Please read the postI have already stated that is ONE article which supports your claim.
Please show me an Australian newspaper, which I think we are all inclined to believe the CA are likely to read rather than one random article search on Google.
You are yet to clearly explain why the CA decided to cancel the tour to Pakistan 2 months beforehand. The CA based their security report on a 2 day stay. And guess what the analysis was? Cricket is a western sport, and therefore may be targetted. What a load of crap. Simple as that.
Now, you have the other security company, who stays in Pakistan for months, and speaks to the police, and other important dignitories.
What are you talking about? I'm talking about the incident where the CA canceled their tour of Pakistan (ICC Champions Trophy) 2 months beforehand based on a two day stay
And what sort of an excuse is "cricket is a western sport and therefore may be targetted"
This guy is an idiot. Simple as that. Either say that he was not in the country long enough to make an appropriate decision, or give the benefit of the doubt and say that as far as he has determined, Pakistan is safe.
First, learn to spell
Secondly, tell me this. The Tamil Tigers and the government have been fighting for how long in Sri Lanka? A very long time. Do cricket tours to Sri Lanka continue? Of course, life goes on.
Thirdly, I know exactly where the shots were fired, seeing as I live in the city. And let me tell you this, from that hill, there is absolutely no way that a bullet could have hit a person sitting in the seat properly. It is at such an angle, it is nearly impossible. But thats not the point at all - read this:
Government officials and installations. How is this situation different from the one in Sri Lanka? Are cricketers government officials? Prehaps Symonds should become one, he could become CA's next Dummy Security Analyst - I'm sure that he will require a job after deciding to put his fishing ahead of his team.
Once again, you have no response to the question of whether it is worth the risk to play a cricket tournament.
Insomniac
Title Recipient
Hold up.
You are telling me that a professional company's opinion and analysis is worth less than one guy then there is seriously something wrong.
And if 2 days told him it wasn't safe, why was the only excuse he could muster up was that "cricket is a western sport and therefore could be targetted"
Is it worth the risk to play a cricket tournament? Interesting, but let me ask you this. With presidential security, exactly what risk is there?
What more can you ask for, with security guards outside the hotel, outside the players room, everywhere.
If the players were going out on the streets into the government areas prehaps you have a point, but guess what - they're not.
I live in the country don't I? I go to where every citizen goes (market, etc.) I'm not dead yet, am I? And I don't have presidential security either
Insomniac
Title Recipient
And is there a specific reason you do not wish to discuss the Pakistan touring situation?
Do you have 0 arguments for it, or do you just happen to agree with me?
the second part is related to the Pakistan touring situation, and it seems that I'm not sure why you even decided to wander into this thread if you have no care.
sohum
Executive member
Leave me out of this. How many times do I have to tell you that I do not care to discuss the Pakistan touring situation?
Last I checked Pietersen isn't related to the ATP, and for the millionth time, that's the only point I care to discuss with you!
sohummisra added 5 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...
I do not believe I can have a logical argument about that with the participating debaters. Besides, it's entirely my choice. If you care to draw any conclusions from my stance to "help you go to bed" then you can do so at your own inaccuracy.
There are two reasons that I came to this thread. The first you seemingly still seem to be unable to grasp, which was to prove that your whole ATP-CA comparison was baseless. Second because I have to moderate this thread.
Insomniac
Title Recipient
Thats your belief now, isn't it? Possibly you can't have a logical debate because of pretty much what I said about the security analysts and the successful hosting of the Asia Cup.
Anyway, whatever. Go to bed, sleep tight, whatever makes you feel happy.
And I have already admitted that you were correct about the ATP-CA thing, as suspicious as it may be, after googling and reading more articles.
