India tour of Bangladesh

[manee]

But I don't believe in pure statistics. I would choose Kumble over Harbhajan 8 days a week if I had to choose between them. But to claim that Harbhajan is useless and a spent force in international cricket is to draw the curtains close just when the show has started.

Statistics are just to back up my point, not make it. Also, I feel Harbhajan has lost it big time, based on his most recent cricket which happens to be ODI cricket. Based on watching him play, he doesn't bowl batsman any more, why? He does not spin it as much, he is no longer the bowler who destroyed Australia.

ODIs

2004 (23y 182d)       11  108     416  13  3/28   3/33   32.00  3.85  49.8  0  0
2005 (24y 182d)       24  222.1   915  21  3/35   2/19   43.57  4.11  63.4  0  0
2006 (25y 182d)       23  207     861  25  5/31   3/30   34.44  4.15  49.6  0  1
2007 (26y 182d)        9   79     334   7  2/37   2/59   47.71  4.22  67.7  0  0

Look at the decline, an average of between 32 and 47 is not acceptable. Combined with his economy, he doesn't even take one wicket on average per 10 over spell which is poor. In Tests, the stats are not bad, but honestly, I feel that he is simply not the bowler he once was. I am pretty sure he will go to England and I want him to do well, sad thing is...I dont think he will.

 

[sohum]

Statistics are just to back up my point, not make it. Also, I feel Harbhajan has lost it big time, based on his most recent cricket which happens to be ODI cricket. Based on watching him play, he doesn't bowl batsman any more, why? He does not spin it as much, he is no longer the bowler who destroyed Australia.

The statistics didn't really back up your point. There is no arguing that Harbhajan is not the bowler he was in 2001. But there is no evidence suggesting that he cannot regain that form. It's a similar argument as with Pathan.

Also, it seems you are suggesting that Harbhajan has forgotten how to spin the ball. I think you will find that it is quite difficult to forget how to spin the ball. It's not that he is not spinning it as much but that he doesn't have the confidence to take the wicket-taking deliveries (beating the batsmen in flight, mostly). This is an offshoot of him having to morph into a defensive bowler rather than a wicket-taking one, when Kumble "retired" from ODI cricket and our fast bowlers were leaking the runs all over the place. I think his mentality got stuck on there for a bit and he's just demonstrating the "sticky-wages" theorem so to speak.

Tests

2004 (23y 182d)       11  108     416  13  3/28   3/33   32.00  3.85  49.8  0  0
2005 (24y 182d)       24  222.1   915  21  3/35   2/19   43.57  4.11  63.4  0  0
2006 (25y 182d)       23  207     861  25  5/31   3/30   34.44  4.15  49.6  0  1
2007 (26y 182d)        9   79     334   7  2/37   2/59   47.71  4.22  67.7  0  0

Look at the decline, an average of between 32 and 47 is not acceptable. Combined with his economy, he doesn't even take one wicket on average per 10 over spell which is poor. In Tests, the stats are not bad, but honestly, I feel that he is simply not the bowler he once was. I am pretty sure he will go to England and I want him to do well, sad thing is...I dont think he will.

I don't know if these are ODI or tests because you titled your table Tests and then analyzed them as ODI's. Anyhow, I think the statistics are up and down enough that we can analyze this as a trough in his career. He has also only played 9 ODI's in the current year--not enough to claim his career is over. Also, you must agree that 4.22 is not a particularly bad economy. I have a feeling you are expecting too much from Harbhajan, which is why he is not living up to your expectations. Also, it is unfair to judge him by his performances in England where the conditions are clearly going to be against him.

 

[manee]

I don't know if these are ODI or tests because you titled your table Tests and then analyzed them as ODI's.

ODIs, mistake by me.

I don't know if these are ODI or tests because you titled your table Tests and then analyzed them as ODI's. Anyhow, I think the statistics are up and down enough that we can analyze this as a trough in his career. He has also only played 9 ODI's in the current year--not enough to claim his career is over. Also, you must agree that 4.22 is not a particularly bad economy. I have a feeling you are expecting too much from Harbhajan, which is why he is not living up to your expectations. Also, it is unfair to judge him by his performances in England where the conditions are clearly going to be against him.

Surely the mark of a great spinner (who spins the ball, not like Kumble) is that they can spin it anywhere, and that also they can account for poor conditions by utilising flight and subtle variations in pace and direction of spin.

The statistics didn't really back up your point. There is no arguing that Harbhajan is not the bowler he was in 2001. But there is no evidence suggesting that he cannot regain that form. It's a similar argument as with Pathan.

Also, it seems you are suggesting that Harbhajan has forgotten how to spin the ball. I think you will find that it is quite difficult to forget how to spin the ball. It's not that he is not spinning it as much but that he doesn't have the confidence to take the wicket-taking deliveries (beating the batsmen in flight, mostly). This is an offshoot of him having to morph into a defensive bowler rather than a wicket-taking one, when Kumble "retired" from ODI cricket and our fast bowlers were leaking the runs all over the place. I think his mentality got stuck on there for a bit and he's just demonstrating the "sticky-wages" theorem so to speak.


I don't know if these are ODI or tests because you titled your table Tests and then analyzed them as ODI's. Anyhow, I think the statistics are up and down enough that we can analyze this as a trough in his career. He has also only played 9 ODI's in the current year--not enough to claim his career is over. Also, you must agree that 4.22 is not a particularly bad economy. I have a feeling you are expecting too much from Harbhajan, which is why he is not living up to your expectations. Also, it is unfair to judge him by his performances in England where the conditions are clearly going to be against him.

Please stick around and keep arguing, it got boring a little while ago, but now your back, there is reason to post.

 

[sohum]

Surely the mark of a great spinner (who spins the ball, not like Kumble) is that they can spin it anywhere, and that also they can account for poor conditions by utilising flight and subtle variations in pace and direction of spin.

Bhajji is definitely going to be cutting down on his flight seeing that he is not as confident. I heard from the news that he has been picked for the England tour, though, so it will be a good opportunity for him to prove himself.

Also, I'm not sure but I think Murali is a wrist spinner whereas Bhajji is a finger-spinner, so Murali is going to get more spin than Bhajji every day of the week, regardless of the pitch condition.

It's a Catch-22 situation for Bhajji. If he doesn't toss the ball up and look for the wickets he will be dropped. And if he tosses it up in an effort to get wickets, he may get thwacked. Furthermore, he is expected to keep the runs down as well as take wickets. I think we need to reassess the position of spinner in our ODI team. Are they there to take wickets or stifle the batsmen? Once we know this, I think we will see Harbhajan become more effective.

 

[m_vaughan]

It's a Catch-22 situation for Bhajji. If he doesn't toss the ball up and look for the wickets he will be dropped. And if he tosses it up in an effort to get wickets, he may get thwacked. Furthermore, he is expected to keep the runs down as well as take wickets. I think we need to reassess the position of spinner in our ODI team. Are they there to take wickets or stifle the batsmen? Once we know this, I think we will see Harbhajan become more effective.

To be very honest I think Harbhajan is talented but is not quite as smart as some of the other spinners. He knows the tricks and the technique but doesnt quite know when to use what.

Also coming to the point of what exactly is the role of a spinner in the team. Well, primarily its to take wickets (obviously) and one of the ways to do that is by muffling the batsmen and forcing them to make mistakes out of frustation.

 

[sohum]

Also coming to the point of what exactly is the role of a spinner in the team. Well, primarily its to take wickets (obviously) and one of the ways to do that is by muffling the batsmen and forcing them to make mistakes out of frustation.

Well the primary purpose of any bowler in the team is to take wickets. There is no point in arguing the obvious. However, for the past couple of months, given that our pace bowlers were essentially leaking runs and not really taking wickets, Harbhajan's position in the XI was to stop the runs to create pressure. Surely you will agree that spinners take more wickets by varying their pace and flight than "muffling the batsmen and forcing them to make mistakes out of frustration". Especially given that Bhajji comes on in the middle overs when the field is spread out. However, Bhajji was trying to exactly what you have mentioned, and as a result, was not getting that many wickets.