India tour of New Zealand - Jan to Feb 2014

[SaiSrini]

So this discussion Boils down to this its either Ashwin replacing Jadeja as ASP to ASP or replacing nohit(highly unlikely) as ASP to Batsman and in both cases opening a bowling slot in the team.

also if contesting with jadeja i find jadeja a better fielder, also better at containing which is what people expect of ASP, the prob with Ashwin is not just picking wickets, when he is not picking wickets he goes to defenswive mode, what happens then is he starts leaking more runs in def mode.
The only person i wont mind him replacing is Rohit, I will find it very unlikely to happen.

I am pursuing/sticking my neck out for the second option (that of Ashwin replacing Rohit as the specialist batsmen, thereby opening up a slot in the team for a bowler. This will work both overseas and in India. In India, this will allow us to play three spinners (Jadeja being one of them, with his batting in Indian conditions helpful). Overseas, it will let us play 4 seamers and yet bring Ashwin in if the over-rate is getting out of hand.

I thought the way Ashwin batted in Australia and with the technique he displays, he can truly be a specialist batsman. He has opened before in Ranji cricket. He is not a big hitter, but you don't need big hitters in tests.

 

[used2bcool]

I am pursuing/sticking my neck out for the second option (that of Ashwin replacing Rohit as the specialist batsmen, thereby opening up a slot in the team for a bowler. This will work both overseas and in India. In India, this will allow us to play three spinners (Jadeja being one of them, with his batting in Indian conditions helpful). Overseas, it will let us play 4 seamers and yet bring Ashwin in if the over-rate is getting out of hand.

Yep. I said this a couple of pages ago. Sure it seems radical, but it makes sense. I think we need to get away from the image of Ashwin as a bowler who bats because the usefulness of his bowling overseas is limited. If we move him to number 6 and expect him to fulfill the role of a pure middle-order batsman. The bowling expectation can be to bowl 15 overs a Test and take one wicket. That gives you much greater flexibility when it comes to overseas Tests: we could play four pacers, or a three/one combination (if Jadeja/Ojha strikes form or some legspinner emerges).

Remember, Australia did this with Steve Smith. It can be done. Ashwin seems to have the batting talent to do it.

 

[abhi_jacko]

If Ashwin cant be more attacking then I don't think we can have both Jadeja and Ashwin playing in a test match (atleast overseas). What is the point of having two bowlers doing the containing role. Its an incredibly defensive frame of mind and we will more often than not fail to get the 20 wickets required to win a test.

The first step towards the cure would be to have the balls to play 4 specialist bowlers, regardless of their batting skills. That can be 4 seamers or 3 seamers and a proper attacking spinner. The fifth bowler can be the so called batting or bowling allrounder which is where someone like Jadeja (or Ashwin maybe) can fit in.

 

[SaiSrini]

If Ashwin cant be more attacking then I don't think we can have both Jadeja and Ashwin playing in a test match (atleast overseas). What is the point of having two bowlers doing the containing role. Its an incredibly defensive frame of mind and we will more often than not fail to get the 20 wickets required to win a test.

The first step towards the cure would be to have the balls to play 4 specialist bowlers, regardless of their batting skills. That can be 4 seamers or 3 seamers and a proper attacking spinner. The fifth bowler can be the so called batting or bowling allrounder which is where someone like Jadeja (or Ashwin maybe) can fit in.

That's what I have been saying. If you take our test XI in the last test vs NZ:

Vijay
Dhawan
Pujara
Kohli
RohitAshwin
Rahane
Dhoni
JadejaYadav
Zaheer
Ishant
Shami

Swap Rohit out for Ashwin; swap Jadeja out for Yadav or Pandey (if the wicket is pacer friendly). If the wicket is batting friendly or spin friendly, keep Jadeja or bring in a specialist spinner like Ojha or Mishra. This way, you get 5 bowlers in a match, and the expectation on Ashwin's bowling abilities overseas will be limited.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I would still keep Jaddu over Ashwin though in pacer friendly conditions. I think they are equally adept at batting, while Jadeja is the more effective bowler in unhelpful conditions. And Jadeja is a brilliant fielder

 

[SaiSrini]

I would still keep Jaddu over Ashwin though in pacer friendly conditions. I think they are equally adept at batting, while Jadeja is the more effective bowler in unhelpful conditions. And Jadeja is a brilliant fielder

Jadeja is not equally adept at batting as Ashwin. Ashwin can stay in for a longer time at the crease. Jaddu has been a "hit out or get out" type player in the overseas games in recent times that he has played. Ashwin can play in and play long. Also regarding fielding, Ashwin can be covered most of the time in slips where he is getting to be a safe hand (with exposure). As far as bowling is concerned, Jaddu and Ashwin are similarly ineffective. And in a pacer friendly wicket, the spinner is just to get through things quickly and keep it quiet, which both can do.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I will have to disagree SaiSrini

There is not enough evidence to prove that Ashwin is a better bat in overseas conditions. Firstly Jadeja has only played 3 matches, so we can hardly judge him based on that. About Ashwin overseas, he has scores of 31,30,20,62,5,15,11,7. And again upon some digging, you will notice that in most of his innings his strike rate has been in the 80s. So not exactly a 'play long' candidate.

Even with bowling there is not enough evidence either way due to just 3-4 matches played overseas. But I explained on the previous page why Jadeja might be a better option.

And Ashwin has dropped plenty of catches in slips lol. I remember catches being dropped against SAF, Australia and West Indies. Dont remember Jadeja making too many bloopers in the field though. Infact his fielding was one of the main reasons we got a faint chance of victory in the first test against NZ

 

[War]

Remember, Australia did this with Steve Smith. It can be done. Ashwin seems to have the batting talent to do it.

True. But technically the slight difference in the Smith scenario was that Smith was always a batsman first, spinner second - its just that AUS selectors at the time ridiculously batting him @ # 8 & over hyped his leg-spin.

 

[asprin]

^ Yep. That definitely looked like over-hyping. He was bowling 2-3 lollies every over in the 2nd test. Of course he wouldn't have had any practice, but the way he bowled certainly looked like he had no intention of being a regular bowler.

 

[playkid12]

I will have to disagree SaiSrini

There is not enough evidence to prove that Ashwin is a better bat in overseas conditions. Firstly Jadeja has only played 3 matches, so we can hardly judge him based on that. About Ashwin overseas, he has scores of 31,30,20,62,5,15,11,7. And again upon some digging, you will notice that in most of his innings his strike rate has been in the 80s. So not exactly a 'play long' candidate.

Even with bowling there is not enough evidence either way due to just 3-4 matches played overseas. But I explained on the previous page why Jadeja might be a better option.

And Ashwin has dropped plenty of catches in slips lol. I remember catches being dropped against SAF, Australia and West Indies. Dont remember Jadeja making too many bloopers in the field though. Infact his fielding was one of the main reasons we got a faint chance of victory in the first test against NZ

#1 Ashwin is a poor fielder. Jadeja's fielding is electric. There's really no comparison there.

#2 Ashwin has also forgotten how to take wickets as of late, perhaps due to an inability to adjust to wickets overseas. Jadeja was better than him in SA, but in the NZ tests, he performed poorly.

#3 Jadeja has a superior batting record in ODIs as well as domestic - it's not even close. He doesn't have a better record than Ashwin in tests, but he's barely played any.

I completely agree with you. It's really a no-brainer. You have to be an ardent Ashwin fan to pick him over Jadeja in your starting 11, especially given how horribly Ashwin has been bowling as of late.

 

[surendar]

Lets take both Ashwin & Jadeja out to bring someone like Ojha or Mishra to see how they go. We really don't need to depend on batting skills from either of them because we have other 'better' skilled batters in line up already. Our strength in spin cannot go rotten just because someone fields or bats marginally better.

 

[Aalay]

Lets take both Ashwin & Jadeja out to bring someone like Ojha or Mishra to see how they go. We really don't need to depend on batting skills from either of them because we have other 'better' skilled batters in line up already. Our strength in spin cannot go rotten just because someone fields or bats marginally better.

Oh you beautiful thing. Finally this guy has nailed it, this was the point I was trying to convey in my last few posts. We are so focused on Jadeja vs Ashwin debate that we don't realize that we have two pure spinners in Ojha and Mishra who are still warming the bench. We have 6 players coming before them who are there to perform with the bat. We don't need anymore batsman. If we are playing on pace friendly wickets, we need to look at someone like Rishi Dhawan because there is no point of playing two spinners on this surface where they are just going to hold one end up. If you have a spin friendly pitch than you can always look for Jadeja and Ashwin to do that role for you. Looking at Ojha's recent performances, we have to give him a go to see if he can perform better than Ashwin.

 

[abhi_jacko]

I think the whole point was about discussing the fifth bowler. It was a given that the remaining 4 will be specialist bowlers and one of them will most probably be Mishra/Ojha or both when playing at home.

Having someone like Jadeja (or Ashwin) adds to the batting depth while giving us the important 5th bowler which we have sorely missed all through our disastrous overseas tours.

Basically, 5 specialist batsmen + WK + Allrounder + 4 specialist bowlers. Would be perfect