India's tour of Australia - December/January 2015

[Epic]

My dear friend, its not only about 4 years of effort. Why dont you understand that the same team performs stupendously at home. Abroad, they are at the level of minnows or even worse. This intermittent performance is a real put-off for many spectators.

Who the hell are the minnows you're talking about whenever you drop the "minnow or even worse"? Because either you don't know what it means to be a minnow or have very high standards for what isn't a minnow.

You talk of England,s vulnerability. Why dont we mention the fragility of the Australians during the current series (post Hughes death) ? The previous tour to Asutralia, they were dubbed as the weakest Aussie team, why didnt India seize the initiative then ?

Because Hughes' death isn't a vulnerability, if anything it's the opposite, it's easy motivation, and the previous tour to Australia was an embarrassment purely caused by the legends who were over the hill and should've been sacked after the 0-4 whitewash in England.

Lets talk of the WI tour wherein we did not chase a target well within our reach ? Who decides this ? Obviously its the captain. I have no doubt that, in the same scenario in Adelaide, MSD's boys would not have gone for the target

I'm not going to tell you what's the better approach, because I believe pragmatic captaincy is as effective as aggressive captaincy, Graeme Smith being the best captain of this era makes the point for myself, but regardless, we did lead the series in West Indies 1-0 and we successfully drew the game and consequently won the series, Kohli on the other hand went for it in the 1st Test of the series in Adelaide and lost, leaving us 0-1 for a start.

Lets compare once Clarke has captained 11 matches in the subcontinent and lost all 11 of them. (on the trot). Comparison is not justified. However, having said that the CA was probing an alternative to Micheal Clarke the skipper. The BCCI does not do anything of that sort cause he is the vice-president of India Cements.

Where the hell are you getting this 11 on the trot number, India under Dhoni lost 7 overseas matches (Sehwag captained the team on the 4th Test of the series vs Australia) on the trot then toured South Africa and drew the 1st game.

Clarke's 5 losses on the trot (Watson captained the team on the 4th Test of the series vs India) in Asia actually lines up quite well to Dhoni's 7 on the trot.[DOUBLEPOST=1419578579][/DOUBLEPOST]Really you all should quit beating around the bush, an aggressive captain is simply more attractive than a pragmatic one and Dhoni being the latter, everyone and their mother is after him, same was the case with Graeme Smith.

 

[PokerAce]

My dear friend, its not only about 4 years of effort. Why dont you understand that the same team performs stupendously at home. Abroad, they are at the level of minnows or even worse. This intermittent performance is a real put-off for many spectators.

Thats the point, there are different skillsets required to win at home and away. At home our spinner can pick 20 wickets and hence we win. Away we just don't have the bowlers, to pick 20 wickets, so no matter who the captain is we cannot win. On top of that the batting is inconsistant, to the point there one collapse per innings is almost mandatory. How can any captain be expected to win series overseas with such sides.

You talk of England,s vulnerability. Why dont we mention the fragility of the Australians during the current series (post Hughes death) ?

When did I talk of England's vulverability. I may have spoken about our vulnerability in Eng on green pitches, yes, but not England's vulnerability. Also how can we sieze on any vulnerability when we just don't have the bowling to do it. Why don't u understand this, without a bowling unit, no captain can win overseas, and right now we don't have the bowling and to add to our troubles a damn incosistant batting line up.

The previous tour to Asutralia, they were dubbed as the weakest Aussie team, why didnt India seize the initiative then ?

Honestly I think on the last tour to Aus forget weakes Aus line up, it was the weakest Ind line up. All seniors on their last legs, none of them could score, no kind of openers, and an even more inexperienced bowling line up than this tour, which is not great to begin with. When the tables turned, the weakest Ind line up, gave the same whitewash back to the Aus line up.

Lets talk of the WI tour wherein we did not chase a target well within our reach ? Who decides this ? Obviously its the captain. I have no doubt that, in the same scenario in Adelaide, MSD's boys would not have gone for the target

Can you be more specific about the target we didn;t chase. I don't remember. And for all the bravado, who eventually won the test. Taking nothing away from a good effort, brilliant effort infact, would you rather be 0-0 level or 1-0 down. And again I don't blame Kohli for the loss, just the way our batting is right now. One session 8 wickets lost, test match over. Lets not forget the miserable bowling where in both innings Aus declared. Second test same story, 4th day morning 5 wickets lost, thx for coming. How can captains, MSD or Kohli be expected to deliver wins with such a side?


[/quote]I am talking of the long rope given to Rohit Sharma in all formats. Plus, if you have non-performers, chuck them out. Thats the only way they will learn. Continued persistence with a failing batting order is not good for any team.

Heck, even Bangaldesh makes changes when the top order does not fire and it works for them.[/quote]

Look to be fair Rohit has got a rather short rope. Just 1 test in Eng, and 2 in Aus, which was kinda mandatory after his recent form in India. However promptly dropped. Also B'desh, have no batsmen even with half as much class as Kohli and Pujara. So they can drop who they want when they want. When the likes of Pujara and Kohli are going through a rut the solution is not to drop them, but to stick with them. Apart from these two though, the non-performers have been constantly chopped and changed. As I pointed out all 18 touring squad was tried in Eng, and even in Aus already there have been a fair share of changes made in the test series. Its not like the team is not trying new stuff, just that the quality is not there to win overseas.

Its not a problem of the captain but the overall quality of the team. Thats the point I am making. Let the team first get able and ready.






Lets compare once Clarke has captained 11 matches in the subcontinent and lost all 11 of them. (on the trot). Comparison is not justified. However, having said that the CA was probing an alternative to Micheal Clarke the skipper. The BCCI does not do anything of that sort cause he is the vice-president of India Cements.[DOUBLEPOST=1419577208][/DOUBLEPOST]

There is no hate revolving around MSD. The fact is the BCCI tends to hide his overseas record by camouflaging it with his home one or even the ODI aspect.[/QUOTE]

 

[Yuvi.]

Ok! Lets admit that India lacks Good Fast Bowlers. But even Spinners? What has Ashwin given us in the Last Three or Four Overseas Tour? Nothing. He hasn't even suceeded in maintaing any kind of pressure.
If India can't even play on its strength , then what can You expect?

 

[Epic]

Ironic how you're trashing Ashwin after his best day in an overseas Test, Ashwin like I said in this very thread a week or so ago has been handled so poorly overseas that it's almost a shock to me that he has the confidence to put the sort of performance he did today, and I also thought he bowled quite well at the Gabba till the whole tail fiasco.

 

[PokerAce]

Ok! Lets admit that India lacks Good Fast Bowlers. But even Spinners? What has Ashwin given us in the Last Three or Four Overseas Tour? Nothing. He hasn't even suceeded in maintaing any kind of pressure.
If India can't even play on its strength , then what can You expect?

Well again you are not factoring in the conditions. In India on those pitches Ashwin is a different factor. In Australia with the conditions not condusive, he can only do so much. Think of it this way, Aus have batted four times this series, and have been bowled out just once. Forget picking 20 wickets a match, Indian bowlers are struggling to pick 10. How are captains to be expected to deliver wins in these situations.

 

[icyman]

the previous tour to Australia was an embarrassment purely caused by the legends who were over the hill and should've been sacked after the 0-4 whitewash in England.

Legends themselves walked away after the Oz series.

The point is bang on- Selection requires justification. If you felt that the legends didn't perform, why not kick them out ?
Isnt the captain in charge of who all to take on the overseas trip ? Not completely, but at least he must be consulted, else you might have a situation like ' Noel David, Who ?'

Thats the point, there are different skillsets required to win at home and away. At home our spinner can pick 20 wickets and hence we win. Away we just don't have the bowlers, to pick 20 wickets, so no matter who the captain is we cannot win.

Again selection and persisting with the same line-up is to blame here. Lot of ppl raised questions as to why Karn was selected in Adelaide. IMO a bold choice given that Ashwin and Jadeja havent lived up to their hype in Test matches.

Ironic how you're trashing Ashwin after his best day in an overseas Test, Ashwin like I said in this very thread a week or so ago has been handled so poorly overseas that it's almost a shock to me that he has the confidence to put the sort of performance he did today, and I also thought he bowled quite well at the Gabba till the whole tail fiasco.

Once in a bluemoon performance.

But do you honestly require your spinner to simple hold up an end and stem the run flow ? Or do you want a spinner to take wickets for you ? Defensive mentality will say that stemming the run flow is important.

I know that the counter-argument would be - Do you want a spinner who takes wickets but leaks 6 RPO and all. TBH, there would be better spinners in India who have not yet been given a chance. Amit Mishra and Pragyan Ojha are like mere tourists on away tours as they end up doing nothing.

Blame the captain. He selects the XI and its the same for bulk of his matches.

 

[PokerAce]

Again selection and persisting with the same line-up is to blame here. Lot of ppl raised questions as to why Karn was selected in Adelaide. IMO a bold choice given that Ashwin and Jadeja havent lived up to their hype in Test matches.

Again, the very fact that Karn was tried shows that the same players are not being persisted with.

 

[lion100lion]

That's how hopeless Indian cricket has been in tests overseas, under the mighty leadership of Dhoni! The Lords 2014 win was a fluke, if not for that, India have been absolute minnows when playing overseas. They have truly played like minnows.

You time and again criticize Dhoni for the failure in overseas as if Indian team is the only team losing overseas. Except for South Africa (and to some extent Srilanka), every team's overseas performance has been poor. This is because every team is re-building up.
South Africa has a mixture of good experienced and young players. That's the reason of their performance. You may argue about Pakistan too. But with Ajmal gone, their performance has also dipped.

So, the Indian team is going in right direction.. the process has been right.. there are only minor problems that are causing failures which will be sorted out. Even Dravid is saying this !!!
By the time Virat takes over, the team will become more stable, experienced, will start winning on a consistent basis and of course Virat will take all credit(which is OK). This is something like Australian team under the captaincy of (Allan Border, Steve Waugh) and Ponting. Ponting reaped what his previous captains sowed and he did reap well !!!

 

[Yuvi.]

BTW , did anyone listen Pup's Insights?
How was His day at the New Office?
Was He boring , Slaterish , entertaining or what?

 

[icyman]

Again, the very fact that Karn was tried shows that the same players are not being persisted with.

Under Kohli, not MSD.

Thats what I have been referring to. Under a new captain, things have moved forth with a surge of fresh ideas. Somew=thing we haven't really seen under MSD.

 

[lion100lion]

Under Kohli, not MSD.

Thats what I have been referring to. Under a new captain, things have moved forth with a surge of fresh ideas. Somew=thing we haven't really seen under MSD.

But the team management is the same.
Also, What about Lokesh Rahul being included in squad today ? Wasn't MSD the captain today ? (hope that no one reasons out that he is in CSK and blah blah blah )

 

[icyman]

I believe the BCCI gives enough power to the captain to make the final XI decisions. Even the coach does not have much of a say in this.

As for Lokesh Rahul, I belive this is the influence of Ravi Shashtri on MSD that he has found a place in the side. Plus, these are just the handful of chances effected under the current captain.

I wouldn't go on to say that the CSK influence has worked here as I see great potential in this kid. Plus, Lokesh Rahul has had a magnificent run in the previous edition of the Ranji. Another guy I would surely like to see in the team is Unmukt Chand. (he needs a strong season to back him though, but definitely one for the future)

 

[Epic]

Legends themselves walked away after the Oz series.

The point is bang on- Selection requires justification. If you felt that the legends didn't perform, why not kick them out ?
Isnt the captain in charge of who all to take on the overseas trip ? Not completely, but at least he must be consulted, else you might have a situation like ' Noel David, Who ?'

Combination of walking away and pushed out I would say, not all retirements are done without pressure from the selectors, as far as captain's having input in who is selected and who isn't, that's not how it works officially, but that's not going to stop people from insinuating it.

Again selection and persisting with the same line-up is to blame here. Lot of ppl raised questions as to why Karn was selected in Adelaide. IMO a bold choice given that Ashwin and Jadeja havent lived up to their hype in Test matches.

Well I would argue that Ashwin has been dropped at the wrong times in our overseas run, whenever there was a pitch with turn on offer, he's been on the bench, this goes all the way back to the South Africa tour.

Once in a bluemoon performance.

But do you honestly require your spinner to simple hold up an end and stem the run flow ? Or do you want a spinner to take wickets for you ? Defensive mentality will say that stemming the run flow is important.

I know that the counter-argument would be - Do you want a spinner who takes wickets but leaks 6 RPO and all. TBH, there would be better spinners in India who have not yet been given a chance. Amit Mishra and Pragyan Ojha are like mere tourists on away tours as they end up doing nothing.

Blame the captain. He selects the XI and its the same for bulk of his matches.

I require my lone spinner to be capable of doing both overseas, stem the run flow when needed and take wickets when there's spin on offer.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what people see in Mishra, if he was anywhere in the selectors mind, he would've been picked ahead of Karn for this tour, and I'll concede that Ojha has been handled even worse than Ashwin has been overseas, all those times Jadeja played ahead of Ashwin in South Africa, New Zealand and England, it should've been Ojha, Jadeja had the 1 game vs South Africa where a pitch with turn on offer was put out and he took advantage of it and seems to have permanently pushed Ojha out the Test squads overseas, I believe he hasn't featured in the squads to New Zealand, England and now Australia.[DOUBLEPOST=1419603976][/DOUBLEPOST]

I believe the BCCI gives enough power to the captain to make the final XI decisions. Even the coach does not have much of a say in this.

This is true, the captain picks the XI, the selectors pick the squad.

 

[PokerAce]

Under Kohli, not MSD.

Thats what I have been referring to. Under a new captain, things have moved forth with a surge of fresh ideas. Somew=thing we haven't really seen under MSD.

Do you really think that MSD had nothing to do with Karn playing? How about KL Rahul being tried now, and India trying all 18 players on the tour to England.

 

[namin96]

Dhoni got to captain a good team in 4 overseas tours (New Zealand, Sri Lanka, South Africa and West Indies), of which he won 2 and drew 2, the rest was teams over the hill or inexperienced, shame his legacy will be this, but Kohli and whoever follows him will reap all the rewards from all the overseas tours since the recent South Africa one.

And you can say many things about this team, but played like minnows? That was the team with all the legends you love that embarrassed us in England and Australia, this team rather competed in South Africa vs the best team in the world and were in a position to win a Test, competed vs New Zealand, who sure they were expected to beat and again we were in positions to do so, but nonetheless, they competed, then they competed vs England in 3 Tests, lead 1-0 at one point, sure it all fell apart, but they were there or there abouts, now tell me if our rivals in the sub-continent have even competed to this sort of extent in the aforementioned countries.

Another thing, we haven't played Pakistan or Sri Lanka in the last few years where as everyone has seen England, Australia and South Africa take turns beating each other away from home, maybe if we were provided the same opportunity to tour our rivals in the sub-continent peoples mind wouldn't be so clouded with this notion of failing to compete away from home.

Nonetheless, in a time period where everyone but South Africa are shit overseas, to constantly bang about it is getting quite ridiculous.

Yeah South Africa is going to be a handful next October when they tour India. They can really bat against spin especially Amla, De Villiers, and Du Plesis are really good against spin. That will be our best competitive series we have had at home in a while when South Africa tours India.