India's tour of Pakistan, 2008-09, 3 Tests and 5 ODIs

[Insomniac]

I argue that your statistics prove nothing. And hence if you look at the original stats that you provided, one can only claim that Pakistan is more likely to have a draw.

If you really want to conduct an analysis based on pitches, do the following and I will take you seriously:

- Discount matches featuring Bangladesh
- Discount matches featuring Zimbabwe since the Mugabe reign
- Discount rain-affected matches

Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are the only exceptions I think can reasonably allowed for a large difference in skill level. Taking South Africa and Australia out is silly especially since teams have won games there (namely, India).

And if you stop comparing it to Indian pitches at each stage, your results will be taken more seriously. There is no hypocrisy in making a statement about the other team. Hypocrisy is when you say something and do something else. It would be hypocritical if Indian groundsmen accused Pakistani pitches of being dead. I don't think India2011 or Cricketman are groundsmen so that argument is completely invalid.

I'm confused - how is Pakistan more likely to have a draw, when India has a higher % of home games becoming draws.

I have already admitted Pakistan is one of the flat pitches of the world. But to say it is the flattest / worse is a serious overstatement, when a country sitting next door has the highest percentage.

Now, you asked to discount matches featuring Bangladesh. I have also removed all Zimbabwe games. Now to discount rain-affected matches, it barely ever rains in the subcontinent. I'm not sure how much of a difference rain has made in any test in Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh (Sri Lanka being an exception).

So I think that factor can be ignored...

Now, the stats.

Since 2000

Australia - 17.4%
England - 26.3%
South Africa - 16.3%
Sri Lanka - 27.0%
India - 38.2%
New Zealand - 24.1%
Pakistan - 30.8%
West Indies - 37.5%​

http://stats.cricinfo.com/statsguru...2000;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team

I have no idea how we're going to discount rain-affected games, good luck with that. But one thing is that I think rain can be discounted in India and Pakistan, seeing as it rarely happens.

Yes, Pakistan and India are known for this flatness. But I am disproving the theory which seems to be going around that Pakistan has the flattest pitches in the world, which is not true at all. It just so happens that it is India which has the flattest pitches (not counting Bangladesh or Zimbabwe).

Are these the qualifications (to the best of my ability I think) that we can use to make a best and qualified judgement?

 

[sohum]

I'm confused - how is Pakistan more likely to have a draw, when India has a higher % of home games becoming draws.

Did I mention India in my post? Seriously, why do you keep bringing India up in comparison when I did not ask for it. Have you recently made a concrete post in PlanetCricket about Pakistan without having India in it? I said Pakistan is more likely to have a draw when compared to the rest of the world. Which is true and proven by your previous statistics.

I have already admitted Pakistan is one of the flat pitches of the world. But to say it is the flattest / worse is a serious overstatement, when a country sitting next door has the highest percentage.

You are obviously confused with the definition of "more". You seem to think that "more" means "most", when it isn't.

Now, you asked to discount matches featuring Bangladesh. I have also removed all Zimbabwe games. Now to discount rain-affected matches, it barely ever rains in the subcontinent. I'm not sure how much of a difference rain has made in any test in Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh (Sri Lanka being an exception).

So I think that factor can be ignored...

I remember plenty of matches being rain-affected in India. So it is definitely valid. And note that I said remove Zimbabwe matches after Mugabe took over. Zimbabwe were pretty bad but could still manage a draw before the stupid selection policies took over. In fact, they had plenty of test-calibre players in Andy Flower, Alistair Campbell and Heath Streak. So fix that. And rain is definitely important. For example, the second Test in the last Australian tour of India would have been a result-game if it had not rained.

I have no idea how we're going to discount rain-affected games, good luck with that. But one thing is that I think rain can be discounted in India and Pakistan, seeing as it rarely happens.

It's pretty simple. Cricinfo stores information about whether games were stopped for rain or bad light. So you have to open up each game and make note of that information, if StatsGuru doesn't do it for you. Until you take these out, I refuse to accept the statistics you provide as being credible.

Yes, Pakistan and India are known for this flatness. But I am disproving the theory which seems to be going around that Pakistan has the flattest pitches in the world, which is not true at all. It just so happens that it is India which has the flattest pitches (not counting Bangladesh or Zimbabwe).

No one had the theory that Pakistan is the flattest pitch. If you read previous pages of this thread and indeed my post, you will note that Indian members have posted on this thread noting that India also has flat pitches. Of course, you choose to ignore that as well as any mentions to those posts because it hurts your ability to create an argument out of no conflict.

Are these the qualifications (to the best of my ability I think) that we can use to make a best and qualified judgement?

Nope, read the rest of my post to find out why.

 

[Insomniac]

Did I mention India in my post? Seriously, why do you keep bringing India up in comparison when I did not ask for it. Have you recently made a concrete post in PlanetCricket about Pakistan without having India in it? I said Pakistan is more likely to have a draw when compared to the rest of the world. Which is true and proven by your previous statistics.

I don't care if you mentioned India. I am mentioning the other 2 countries where a draw seems to be likely, and it just so happens to be India. Not my fault that India produces such flat tracks



I remember plenty of matches being rain-affected in India. So it is definitely valid. And note that I said remove Zimbabwe matches after Mugabe took over.

Well, that would be since 1987 that Mugabe became President (well self-appointed). Not sure how far Cricinfo goes back as far as weather is concerned...

Zimbabwe were pretty bad but could still manage a draw before the stupid selection policies took over.

When did these exactly start? I'd rather do this on your terms rather than mine, so it won't be debatable

In fact, they had plenty of test-calibre players in Andy Flower, Alistair Campbell and Heath Streak. So fix that. And rain is definitely important. For example, the second Test in the last Australian tour of India would have been a result-game if it had not rained.



It's pretty simple. Cricinfo stores information about whether games were stopped for rain or bad light. So you have to open up each game and make note of that information, if StatsGuru doesn't do it for you. Until you take these out, I refuse to accept the statistics you provide as being credible.


No one had the theory that Pakistan is the flattest pitch. If you read previous pages of this thread and indeed my post, you will note that Indian members have posted on this thread noting that India also has flat pitches. Of course, you choose to ignore that as well as any mentions to those posts because it hurts your ability to create an argument out of no conflict.


Nope, read the rest of my post to find out why.

Ok, please let me know on when in your opinion as to when these obscure selection polices began by Zimbabwe. Also, you say that Indian members have posted that India also has flat pitches. Where are those comments?

I searched for all posts that have the terms "flat, India" and I only got one post of mine, and two of yours. Hmm, interesting. Other Indian members? I don't see them, unless they have another word for "flat" and did not have India in their post. <-- I am challenging what you said about Indian members in this thread.

And I will see what we can do about the rain, because I highly doubt Cricinfo stores information before around 2000...

 

[0601731]

and the series hasn't even begun yet.....lets just hope it ll be better than what we have seen in the recent past.

 

[sohum]

Search for the time the Flower brothers migrated to England. That would be a good time. Around the time Taibu became captain, I suppose. You can look it up yourself, since you're the one who wants to convince me that Pakistan pitches are result-oriented.

As for the comment about Indian members, you're right, no one said that. The post I was thinking about was this one by Cricketman. Basically, no one made any claims on Indian pitches, yet you seem to believe that proving that Indian pitches are less sporty than Pakistan pitches somehow proves that Pakistan pitches are sporting.

 

[Insomniac]

It is a "rumor" that Pakistani pitches are very very flat, as used in the wording of severe members, which leads me to show that while Pakistani pitches can be sporting, they are definitely not as sportng as one in say, South Africa.

I will work on your analysis bit by bit, and post my results ASAP (possibly 2-3 days from now, if that is acceptable)

 

[shubhrayu]

India-Pakistan rivalary is now dead.India-Australia rivalary has come up

 

[Insomniac]

India-Pakistan rivalary is now dead.India-Australia rivalary has come up

And it will die just as fast.

Take a look at this:

India v Australia, T20 SemiFinal
Australia tours India, 7 ODIs
India tours Australia, 4 tests, 1 T20, CB Series
Australia tours India, 7 ODIs, 4 tests (?)

And all of that within a period of about 1 year and 2 months, take out the T20, and they've played that much cricket in 1 year.

 

[shubhrayu]

Yeah and the Champions trophy opener for India was agains Australia and Simon Katich's recent comments has mad the rivalary bigger

 

[Cricketman]

India v Australia, T20 SemiFinal
Australia tours India, 7 ODIs
India tours Australia, 4 tests, 1 T20, CB Series
Australia tours India, 7 ODIs, 4 tests (?)

Only 4 tests.

At least they're good competition.

 

[Leggie]

And it will die just as fast.

Take a look at this:

India v Australia, T20 SemiFinal
Australia tours India, 7 ODIs
India tours Australia, 4 tests, 1 T20, CB Series
Australia tours India, 7 ODIs, 4 tests (?)

And all of that within a period of about 1 year and 2 months, take out the T20, and they've played that much cricket in 1 year.

Ask all the Indian Members on the forum what they prefer at the moment, India V Pakistan or India V Australia. Most of them will say Option B. Simple Reasons, More competition, India Pakistan matches don't have enough spice anymore (I mean the last spicy thing that happened in an India Pakistan match was the Gambhir Afridi incident, And that was just some wannabe hardman shoulder barging as well....

 

[Insomniac]

I'm not saying the competition is bad, its quite "invigorating"

However, don't you think it could become a bit of an "overkill" if you get what I mean?

 

[Leggie]

I'm not saying the competition is bad, its quite "invigorating"

However, don't you think it could become a bit of an "overkill" if you get what I mean?

That is only something which time can tell.

As teams play each other more and more, It could get increasingly boring for the Viewers or Vica Versa. It just depends when the diminshing point of return is (When Viewers start to find it boring.....So far, So good though).

 

[sohum]

The reason it won't get boring with India-Australia is because Australia is the best team in the world whereas India is not, hence it will always be somewhat of a challenge to beat them, and hence the competition will be somewhat exciting. With India-Pakistan, the teams are relatively equal with one sometimes better than the other, so going by form one can predict which team can win much easier.

Also, the fact that we have matched the Aussies in the last few Test series adds to that. And you cannot discount the spice brought about by the average Aussie fan's arrogance.

That was just a joke. Or about 80% a joke.

 

[SaiSrini]

India-Pakistan rivalary is now dead.India-Australia rivalary has come up

I agree! Its just more interesting and exciting to watch an India-Australia series than an India-Pakistan series

saisrini80 added 4 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

Ask all the Indian Members on the forum what they prefer at the moment, India V Pakistan or India V Australia. Most of them will say Option B. Simple Reasons, More competition, India Pakistan matches don't have enough spice anymore (I mean the last spicy thing that happened in an India Pakistan match was the Gambhir Afridi incident, And that was just some wannabe hardman shoulder barging as well....

I dont care about the spice. The twists and turns have reduced quite a bit with the India-Pakistan matches. Most of the times, I see India dominating for quite some period of time, or if its Pakistan's day, they dominate for a long period of time. The last classic India-Pakistan series was the 2004 ODI series which rocked. With India-Australia, if Australia dominate, India suddenly come back and take over, and vice versa. The competition is gripping