Overrated cricketers

[Fenil]

You think he's over-rated and now you, yourself under-rating him Lol

Think I over-rated Shoaib Malik.

 

[Owzat]

Lol... darn impressive against weak players of spin. That is why we are saying he is overrated.

So if he doesn't get top players of spin out he must be cr ap?!?! I'm sorry Swanny, you should have got Sachin et al out every innings 1st ball. Like I said, compare current spinners, not overanalyse his stats.

Besides which, who is it you claim is over-rating him?!? He is as good as he is, has anyone claimed he is better than the better Indian spinners, murali or Warne of whom most are brought up in helpful conditions and have that advantage to their locker?

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can the impartials please have an answer to this question.

because it seems when anyone talks about sehwag I get told the sub-continent is all flat tracks and roads and yet when someone mentions murali all of a sudden it's an absolute minefield where no proper batsman could be expected to score.

I am impartial, comparing like for like stats. Murali also played the likes of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh a lot more than the aussies did.

In Sri Lanka Murali averaged under 20, in India he averaged over 45. Swann averages 39 in India I think, therefore Swann >> Murali ! Warne averaged just under 45 in India, funnily enough he averaged 20 in Sri Lanka albeit only in nine Tests.

 

[Champagnepapi]

i think sehwag in just one day in one match some people started to say he is better then sachin

 

[bobby210]

I know most people wouldn't like what i am going to say but Afridi. very over-rated. P.S i am pakistani

 

[sifter132]

So if he doesn't get top players of spin out he must be cr ap?!?! I'm sorry Swanny, you should have got Sachin et al out every innings 1st ball. Like I said, compare current spinners, not overanalyse his stats.

Besides which, who is it you claim is over-rating him?!? He is as good as he is, has anyone claimed he is better than the better Indian spinners, murali or Warne of whom most are brought up in helpful conditions and have that advantage to their locker?

No I don't think he's been compared to them, but he's still been labelled the world's #1 spinner, and I think as far as #1s go he is not that good. Swanny's a good bowler to be sure, but he doesn't hold a candle to the greats of a few years back. Against the best batting teams he averages 40 vs Aus, 40 vs Ind, 31 vs SA and 23 vs SL. If he's great based on his 4/16 vs SL, then fine, but I don't see a #1 spinner in the world either when I watch him bowl or when I look at his stats. Like I said it's not Swann's fault that he's deemed the #1 spinner because all the other good ones have retired/haven't emerged yet, but the fact that he has that title makes him overrated to me.

 

[Hybrid]

well i given Bevan words for ODI and his four consecutive 5 wicket haul innings against India is quite a achievement which neither Murali achieved or Warne.

Pretty moot point. Warne and Murali has achieved lots things that Saqlain ever has or could have.

Saqlain played less test matches, due to all other things off the field he ruined his career. So i can't say much but he always looked me far more dangerous bowler than Murali. During saqlain time, Murali didn't know how to bowl doosra.
Just see the stats of Murali before 2000 (during this year he learned doosra) and after 2000 you will find huge differences. So before 2000, it was saqlain who was leading off spinner and after 2000 murali all the way but saqlain didn't played much cricket after that.

What exactly does that prove? We rate by average not wickets.

Before 2000, Murali averaged 27 while Saqlain averaged 29.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Plus I don't even know where you are coming up with these. Half of Saqlain career happened in the 90's and the other half in the 00's. And why exactly does it matter if Murali came up with his doosra before 2000? All that says is that he was better than anybody else after coming up with it.

Yes. The great steve waugh called it the final frontier. Unless you prove your skills consistently in the India (or atleast in the subcontinent) he is overrated.

I don't care much for Swann but that's a pretty stupid logic. That's like saying Indian batsmen suck because they fail in England. Indian tour was personal for Steve Waugh because he had never won there as captain just like England tour was personal for Ponting.

 

[puddleduck]

That's like saying Indian batsmen suck because they fail in England.

Isn't that the case?

 

[Annoyingdevil]

I know most people wouldn't like what i am going to say but Afridi. very over-rated. P.S i am pakistani

lol please, since he came back to the team he been the main player in it, he won Pakistan alot of matchs, without him Pakistan team is rubbish and boring.

 

[Owzat]

Current spinners (Tests)

Singh (IND) : 406 wkts @ 32.23
Vettori (NZE) : 355 wkts @ 33.66
Swann (ENG) : 153 wkts @ 28.82
Herath (SRI) : 110 wkts @ 34.94
Harris (SAF) : 103 wkts @ 37.87
Al-Hasan (BAN) : 89 wkts @ 30.98
Price (ZIM) : 79 wkts @ 35.92
Ajmal (PAK) : 73 wkts @ 31.11
Hauritz (AUS) : 63 wkts @ 34.98
Bishoo (WIN) : 39 wkts @ 36.23
Ashwin (IND) : 22 wkts @ 22.91
Lyon (AUS) : 19 wkts @ 26.47
Botha (SAF) : 17 wkts @ 33.71

So of those selected spinners, only Lyon and Ashwin average less than Swann and they've taken less than 25 Test wickets. Those are the only three in that list of Test spinners to average under 30, if you feel I've left someone out then please mention them or add their comparitive stats to the list.

In India

Ashwin (IND) : 22 wkts @ 22.91
Singh (IND) : 258 wkts @ 28.43
Price (ZIM) : 10 wkts @ 31.40
Swann (ENG) : 8 wkts @ 39.50
Vettori (NZE) : 31 wkts @ 44.77
Hauritz (AUS) : 11 wkts @ 44.82
Herath (SRI) : 11 wkts @ 48.82
Harris (SAF) : 13 wkts @ 54.23
Bishoo (WIN) : 7 wkts @ 62.29

Botha (SAF) : n/a
Lyon (AUS) : n/a
Ajmal (PAK) : n/a
Al-Hasan (BAN) : n/a

Shocker, a lot of non-Indians don't do well in India - both Warne and Murali averaged over 40 in India.

vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRI

Singh (IND) : 202 wkts @ 31.50
Lyon (AUS) : 12 wkts @ 34.58
Swann (ENG) : 83 wkts @ 35.55
Herath (SRI) : 41 wkts @ 35.66
Ajmal (PAK) : 37 wkts @ 36.73
Al-Hasan (BAN) : 32 wkts @ 36.97
Vettori (NZE) : 175 wkts @ 38.93
Harris (SAF) : 46 wkts @ 41.80
Bishoo (WIN) : 19 wkts @ 43.53
Hauritz (AUS) : 16 wkts @ 46.69
Botha (SAF) : 2 wkts @ 51.50
Price (ZIM) : 21 wkts @ 52.33
Ashwin (IND) : n/a

All Ashwin's wickets have come vs West Indies, Ajmal hasn't played India, Bishoo has only played India of the four teams listed

Apart from Harbhajan, who has done better than Swann against the better sides/players of spin? You break and analyse most spinners in the ways Swann is being and you are bound to find flaws, but not uncommon flaws. Bottom line is the average rarely lies, it might strongly favour Indians who play give or take half their games at home, or indeed Murali in Sri Lanka.

Take away Murali's wickets in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and Pakistan and you get 202 wkts @ 29.73. In Australia he averaged 75.42, in India a better but not great 45.45. He also took a whopping 176 wkts against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, 22%. Throw in the kiwis and long time weak windies and that's 340 wkts @ 17.74 and 42.50% of his wickets, the other 460 coming @ 26.41 which is still good but not nearly as low as his career 22.73

Back to Swann, his average against the aussies is high but largely because of Tests in Australia. In England he averages 31.14 against them. Fair enough his average against India isn't great home or away, but they are masters of playing spin

 

[puddleduck]

Fantastic statisical post with some excellent research Owzat...

Are you sure you posted in the right forum

 

[teamindia]

In India

Ashwin (IND) : 22 wkts @ 22.91
Singh (IND) : 258 wkts @ 28.43
Price (ZIM) : 10 wkts @ 31.40
Swann (ENG) : 8 wkts @ 39.50
Vettori (NZE) : 31 wkts @ 44.77
Hauritz (AUS) : 11 wkts @ 44.82
Herath (SRI) : 11 wkts @ 48.82
Harris (SAF) : 13 wkts @ 54.23
Bishoo (WIN) : 7 wkts @ 62.29

Botha (SAF) : n/a
Lyon (AUS) : n/a
Ajmal (PAK) : n/a
Al-Hasan (BAN) : n/a

Shocker, a lot of non-Indians don't do well in India - both Warne and Murali averaged over 40 in India.

Murali has on many occasions humiliated India outside India. Unlike Swann

vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRI

Singh (IND) : 202 wkts @ 31.50
Lyon (AUS) : 12 wkts @ 34.58
Swann (ENG) : 83 wkts @ 35.55
Herath (SRI) : 41 wkts @ 35.66
Ajmal (PAK) : 37 wkts @ 36.73
Al-Hasan (BAN) : 32 wkts @ 36.97
Vettori (NZE) : 175 wkts @ 38.93
Harris (SAF) : 46 wkts @ 41.80
Bishoo (WIN) : 19 wkts @ 43.53
Hauritz (AUS) : 16 wkts @ 46.69
Botha (SAF) : 2 wkts @ 51.50
Price (ZIM) : 21 wkts @ 52.33
Ashwin (IND) : n/a

All Ashwin's wickets have come vs West Indies, Ajmal hasn't played India, Bishoo has only played India of the four teams listed

Apart from Harbhajan, who has done better than Swann against the better sides/players of spin? You break and analyse most spinners in the ways Swann is being and you are bound to find flaws, but not uncommon flaws. Bottom line is the average rarely lies, it might strongly favour Indians who play give or take half their games at home, or indeed Murali in Sri Lanka.

So Aus and SA are better sides of spin? That is new news to me

Back to Swann, his average against the aussies is high but largely because of Tests in Australia. In England he averages 31.14 against them. Fair enough his average against India isn't great home or away, but they are masters of playing spin

Yes when you cannot do well against the masters home/away or neutral then don't keep saying he is good. I doubt his average is any better against Pak and SL (individually). So yeah he is overrated. Come back when he does well against these teams...

 

[Atharv]

sehwag for me in under-rated. in my opinion over the last decade he's been the outstanding batsman yet is still regarded as secondary to tendulkar, ponting, kallis etc.

ok, so he's definitely more suited to flat tracks than really tricky conditions, but er, so what? on a flat track you're more likely to get a result with sehwag in your team. and for all the moaning about flat tracks, what have these great batsmen achiever with it. averages just a bit over 50? just like batsmen of the 00s, 10s, 20s, 30,s 40, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s?

only sehwag has taken batting into a different realm with his ridiculous strike rate. it's the only bradman esque stat in batting in the last 20 years. teams worry about declaring with a 300 target against india, just cause they know sehwag can knock 50 off that in about 10 overs if he gets going. (also, his 4th innings stats are misleading in that while he doesn't average very highly, he has hit a number of fast 50s setting up wins purely by turning the complexion of the chase on its head in a matter of minutes)

tendulkar is over-rated. technically excellent, perhaps the best ever, but has far too rarely been able to impact matches. funnily, sehwag hitting top form was exactly when india became the no.1 test side.

Bell is also over-rated. poor mans tendulkar, pretty player but very few instances of causing the opposition real problems.

If Tendulkar is over-rated then Bradman is also over rated . Anybody saying that Tendulkar has not created problems for opposition is amusing .

 

[puddleduck]

Wow TeamIndia, just wow.

Owzat takes the time to actually present a good, well supported argument.

His post quite clearly shows that Swann has had a good career and is a good bowler. No one has claimed he is better than Murali or Warne. Owzat's point is that where people are saying Swann has a poor record, he has no worse a record than Warne or Murali, two of the greatest spinners in the history of the game. He also has a better record than any current spinner to take over 25 wickets. So, I can only assume that in your harsh and judgemental brain, there is not a single good spinner at the moment in cricket? This may well be the case, but then, Swann is still the best out of a bad bunch

Perhaps, though, reasoned and intelligent argument is lost on you?

Atharv, surely Stinky's point is actually quite a good one?

He says Tendulkar may well be the best batsmen ever, however he also reasonably suggests that the gap between him and the other greats of his time perhaps isn't as big as some Indian fans seem to believe? Unlike Bradman, Tendulkar does not average almost an entire other batsmen more worth of runs than his peers

 

[sifter132]

Wow TeamIndia, just wow.

Owzat takes the time to actually present a good, well supported argument.

His post quite clearly shows that Swann has had a good career and is a good bowler. No one has claimed he is better than Murali or Warne. Owzat's point is that where people are saying Swann has a poor record, he has no worse a record than Warne or Murali, two of the greatest spinners in the history of the game.

See what you're doing there? Muddling the issue... I think Swann can't hold a candle to Warne/Murali both with his stats and with the 'eye test' where he doesn't look half the bowler when I watch him play. Yes Warne and Murali have holes in their records, but Swann's holes are bigger. Yes, Swann is good compared to everyone else in the world, but that doesn't mean much at present. He's a good bowler to have, but he's not a star/world class - my 2 cents...

And stinky is correct - of course Tendulkar is overrated. When people put him in the same breath as the Don - that is DEFINTELY overrating him. When people say he's clearly 2nd best batsman in history after the Don, that is overrating him too, because I think the only thing that makes him a CLEAR 2nd best is that he's played longer than anyone else. He doesn't have a better average (Sobers is better, and Kallis and Sanga currently), he doesn't have a better ICC ranking (25 batsmen have reached a higher rating than Tendulkar ever has), he doesn't have a better 52 Test span than his competitors (see this article: The List: Who is closest to Don Bradman, George Lohmann and Joel Garner? | Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo, he's just got raw aggregate of runs and 100s.

Now that sells Tendulkar dreadfully short, sorry SRT. He's obviously an excellent player. I'm just trying to point out that many fans see him as history's obvious #2 - I think that's rubbish, hence he's overrated.

 

[puddleduck]

Of course he can't, but as Owzat has demonstrated. Where people have tried to say that because Swann didn't take wickets in his 2 tests in India he isn't any good? Well, as Owzatt points out, those two greats also struggled in the same places. So the fact that Swann's record is similar to some of the best spinners in history (obviously it's not as good) in terms of their weaknessess, then his good numbers deserve recognition as what they are. That is, the number 1 spinner in cricket over the last couple of years?

Am I being unfair? Is that any clearer