Pool and Snooker Thread

[lancashire666]

I'd go to the pub but there's always too much smoke in there.

move to England! smokings been banned in pus WOO HOO!!! :happy

 

[sd92]

Played some pool last night, good fun.

 

[Will_NA]

Greatest game of my life earlier. Came back from the brink of being 8-balled (he had a black and a colour on the table) to winning. Fair enough h potted the black and white to lose on the final shot but I went on a potting streak of 3 and 4.

Classic.

 

[SciD]

Indonesians are best at 9 ball. Love the style of play.

 

[zimrahil]

Definitely. I love watching Williams, Higgins, O'Sullivan and the rest as much as anyone else, and I still want for them to have their day from time to time, but the sooner one of these younger players can win the Worlds, the better. It's also really interesting that this young generation of players is predominantly non-British; hopefully this persuades World Snooker to make the game at least a little less Anglocentric

I'd probably favour something similar to tennis' four majors to sit as the next level down from the World and Tour Championship. The UK Championship, German Masters, China Championship and proposed Saudi Championship would be my preferences. It's an amazing sport, and it has so much potential beyond hosting all its major tournaments in England

Thought better move convo to this thread

The Chinese invasion has been talked about for years and whilst I think the class of 92, Trump, Selby etc will be around for a while yet you can see the slowly but sure influence of the Chinese contingent making their way up the rankings and now finally winning big tournaments.
In fairness to WST the pandemic has resulted in 99% of events being held in Britain but they are trying to get more global again with Turkish Masters, Saudi and German Masters all supposedly being held in their own countries. Whilst convenient for us Brits it undoubtedly will be better for sport if snooker is played around the world. Issue with Chinese events historically is that not many fans attend them making for a poorer viewing experience.

Yes the BBC weren't daft in jumping on the Triple Crown bandwagon (which conveniently are only 3 events they cover) but I agree Snooker should be like other major sports with 4 majors. I am not sure how successful marketing of majors underneath the Worlds/Tour Champs would pan out, I think simply add the Tour Championship to the Triple Crown events to get the big 4
Then I suppose like the Tennis Masters 1000 events you could have the next tier of events such as Saudi, China Champs etc but I doubt WST have that kind of vision/ambition to drive game forward

 

[Aislabie]

I doubt WST have that kind of vision/ambition to drive game forward

They definitely don't and you can kind of see why - what they have at the moment is profitable (but fragile - only three major sponsors) so as a business they have no real incentive to upset the apple cart

Even cricket doesn't try to actively limit the number of professional players though - even if "amateur" doesn't mean the same as in other sports, limiting the world rankings to just the arbitrary "professional" players is lunacy. Like James Cahill getting into the last 16 of the worlds then arriving at the next event with zero ranking points. That completely stopped his career in its tracks

 

[zimrahil]

They definitely don't and you can kind of see why - what they have at the moment is profitable (but fragile - only three major sponsors) so as a business they have no real incentive to upset the apple cart

Even cricket doesn't try to actively limit the number of professional players though - even if "amateur" doesn't mean the same as in other sports, limiting the world rankings to just the arbitrary "professional" players is lunacy. Like James Cahill getting into the last 16 of the worlds then arriving at the next event with zero ranking points. That completely stopped his career in its tracks

In fairness the top 128 players are ranked and they have first dibs at each tour event. When players drop out for whatever reason then top ups are used (never understood how that is worked out though) so its hard to justify even more professional players as they wouldn't get to play anyway.
I agree that any player, regardless of status should receive prize money depending on how they did at an event though, seems the WST are being a bit backward in that regard?
Pro's like Mark Williams wants to cut the tour to only 64 players, which I guess would ensure higher standards at every event but surely that would kill the game at lower levels as would make it praticably impossible to make it as a pro player.

 

[Aislabie]

Pro's like Mark Williams wants to cut the tour to only 64 players, which I guess would ensure higher standards at every event but surely that would kill the game at lower levels as would make it praticably impossible to make it as a pro player.

Yeah, a lot of the top pros have very self-serving views on this. Concerningly, Ronnie O'Sullivan seems to be the most forward-thinking in this regard: he's often criticised the lower-ranked players, but more because he wants to be challenged by them than because he doesn't want them around. A 64-player tour would be so regressive; it'd look something like this:

Spoiler: Players on the Tour

Top 48 at end of last season

1. Judd Trump
2. Mark Selby
3. Ronnie O'Sullivan
4. Neil Robertson
5. Shaun Murphy
6. Kyren Wilson
7. John Higgins
8. Ding Junhui
9. Stephen Maguire
10. Yan Bingtao
11. Mark Williams
12. Mark Allen
13. Barry Hawkins
14. Jack Lisowski
15. Stuart Bingham
16. Anthony McGill
17. Zhou Yuelong
18. Graeme Dott
19. Thepchaiya Un-Nooh
20. Joe Perry
21. Kurt Maflin
22. Tom Ford
23. Dave Gilbert
24. Ali Carter
25. Martin Gould
26. Zhao Xintong
27. Liang Wenbo
28. Ryan Day
29. Xiao Guodong
30. Matthew Selt
31. Michael Holt
32. Ricky Walden
33. Gary Wilson
34. Scott Donaldson
35. Lu Ning
36. Matthew Stevens
37. Robert Milkins
38. Li Hang
39. Luca Brecel
40. Jordan Brown
41. Hossein Vafaei
42. Mark Joyce
43. Liam Highfield
44. Noppon Saengkham
45. Alexander Ursenbacher
46. Ben Woollaston
47. Stuart Carrington
48. Martin O'Donnell

Top 4 others on one-year list

1. Jamie Jones
2. Sam Craigie
3. Jak Jones
4. Joe O'Connor

Around 10 new and returning pros

1. Wu Yize
2. Zhang Jiangkang
3. Peter Lines
4. Fraser Patrick
5. Yuan Sijun
6. Jackson Page
7. Alfie Burden
8. Barry Pinches
9. Michael Judge
10. Craig Steadman

Tour Card Exemptions

1. Stephen Hendry
2. Jimmy White

Spoiler: Selected Players Not on the Tour

• Mark Davis
• Mark King
• Sunny Akani
• Ian Burns
• Dean Young
• Duane Jones
• Dominic Dale
• Jimmy Robertson
• Louis Heathcote
• Ken Doherty
• Dan Wells
• Robbie Williams
• Michael White (who somehow isn't on the tour anyway, to show how broken it is)
• Michael Georgiou (ditto)

And it wouldn't just be about the players not on the tour now - plenty of snooker players develop slowly and players like Stuart Bingham (spent the first near-decade of his career ranked 40+), Barry Hawkins (similar start to his career as Stuart Bingham) and even Kyren Wilson (finished the 2015-16 season ranked 56th and famously nearly retired from the game) would never have been able to establish themselves on such a small tour; they'd have been washed out and forced to go for proper jobs. And that's without looking at the non-UK players, who have to swallow travel costs and for whom the situation now is borderline untenable - guys like Hossein Vafaei and Zhao Xintong, two of the game's brightest prospects, would never have been able to survive on a 64-man tour.

I agree that any player, regardless of status should receive prize money depending on how they did at an event though, seems the WST are being a bit backward in that regard?

Amateur players do earn prize money, but they also have to swallow all their own travel costs and entry fees. Players with Tour Cards often get this sort of thing subsidised to some or all extent by WST.

In fairness the top 128 players are ranked and they have first dibs at each tour event. When players drop out for whatever reason then top ups are used (never understood how that is worked out though) so its hard to justify even more professional players as they wouldn't get to play anyway

At some point, I will post my spreadsheet explaining how I'd work this - for now I'll say that if the business model demands flat-128 draws and no qualifying tournaments, then yeah - there's no tenable way for the tour as it is to support more than 128 full-time players.

 

[zimrahil]

Yeah, a lot of the top pros have very self-serving views on this. Concerningly, Ronnie O'Sullivan seems to be the most forward-thinking in this regard: he's often criticised the lower-ranked players, but more because he wants to be challenged by them than because he doesn't want them around. A 64-player tour would be so regressive; it'd look something like this:

Spoiler: Players on the Tour

Top 48 at end of last season

1. View attachment 262497 Judd Trump
2. View attachment 262497 Mark Selby
3. View attachment 262497 Ronnie O'Sullivan
4. View attachment 262498 Neil Robertson
5. View attachment 262497 Shaun Murphy
6. View attachment 262497 Kyren Wilson
7. View attachment 262499 John Higgins
8. View attachment 262504 Ding Junhui
9. View attachment 262499 Stephen Maguire
10. View attachment 262504 Yan Bingtao
11. View attachment 262505 Mark Williams
12. View attachment 262506 Mark Allen
13. View attachment 262497 Barry Hawkins
14. View attachment 262497 Jack Lisowski
15. View attachment 262497 Stuart Bingham
16. View attachment 262499 Anthony McGill
17. View attachment 262504 Zhou Yuelong
18. View attachment 262499 Graeme Dott
19. View attachment 262507 Thepchaiya Un-Nooh
20. View attachment 262497 Joe Perry
21. View attachment 262508 Kurt Maflin
22. View attachment 262497 Tom Ford
23. View attachment 262497 Dave Gilbert
24. View attachment 262497 Ali Carter
25. View attachment 262497 Martin Gould
26. View attachment 262504 Zhao Xintong
27. View attachment 262504 Liang Wenbo
28. View attachment 262505 Ryan Day
29. View attachment 262504 Xiao Guodong
30. View attachment 262497 Matthew Selt
31. View attachment 262497 Michael Holt
32. View attachment 262497 Ricky Walden
33. View attachment 262497 Gary Wilson
34. View attachment 262499 Scott Donaldson
35. View attachment 262504 Lu Ning
36. View attachment 262505 Matthew Stevens
37. View attachment 262497 Robert Milkins
38. View attachment 262504 Li Hang
39. View attachment 262509 Luca Brecel
40. View attachment 262506 Jordan Brown
41. View attachment 262510 Hossein Vafaei
42. View attachment 262497 Mark Joyce
43. View attachment 262497 Liam Highfield
44. View attachment 262507 Noppon Saengkham
45. View attachment 262511 Alexander Ursenbacher
46. View attachment 262497 Ben Woollaston
47. View attachment 262497 Stuart Carrington
48. View attachment 262497 Martin O'Donnell

Top 4 others on one-year list

1. View attachment 262505 Jamie Jones
2. View attachment 262497 Sam Craigie
3. View attachment 262505 Jak Jones
4. View attachment 262497 Joe O'Connor

Around 10 new and returning pros

1. View attachment 262504 Wu Yize
2. View attachment 262504 Zhang Jiangkang
3. View attachment 262497 Peter Lines
4. View attachment 262499 Fraser Patrick
5. View attachment 262504 Yuan Sijun
6. View attachment 262505 Jackson Page
7. View attachment 262497 Alfie Burden
8. View attachment 262497 Barry Pinches
9. View attachment 262512 Michael Judge
10. View attachment 262497 Craig Steadman

Tour Card Exemptions

1. View attachment 262499 Stephen Hendry
2. View attachment 262497 Jimmy White

Spoiler: Selected Players Not on the Tour

• View attachment 262497 Mark Davis
• View attachment 262497 Mark King
• View attachment 262507 Sunny Akani
• View attachment 262497 Ian Burns
• View attachment 262499 Dean Young
• View attachment 262505 Duane Jones
• View attachment 262505 Dominic Dale
• View attachment 262497 Jimmy Robertson
• View attachment 262497 Louis Heathcote
• View attachment 262513 Ken Doherty
• View attachment 262505 Dan Wells
• View attachment 262497 Robbie Williams
• View attachment 262505 Michael White (who somehow isn't on the tour anyway, to show how broken it is)
• View attachment 262514 Michael Georgiou (ditto)

And it wouldn't just be about the players not on the tour now - plenty of snooker players develop slowly and players like Stuart Bingham (spent the first near-decade of his career ranked 40+), Barry Hawkins (similar start to his career as Stuart Bingham) and even Kyren Wilson (finished the 2015-16 season ranked 56th and famously nearly retired from the game) would never have been able to establish themselves on such a small tour; they'd have been washed out and forced to go for proper jobs. And that's without looking at the non-UK players, who have to swallow travel costs and for whom the situation now is borderline untenable - guys like Hossein Vafaei and Zhao Xintong, two of the game's brightest prospects, would never have been able to survive on a 64-man tour.

Yeah whilst the quality would be amazing and TV would love it, for everyone else connected to the game it would be horrendous. I had forgotten about Kyren Wilson, imagine if he had got lost to the game (now multi ranker and World finalist)
Imagine all those promising youngsters that would be lost to the game, especially the Chinese and UK contingents plus how could game grow globally when near impossible to join main tour?

Amateur players do earn prize money, but they also have to swallow all their own travel costs and entry fees. Players with Tour Cards often get this sort of thing subsidised to some or all extent by WST.

Oh I thought been reading lately that top Pro's were highlighting fact that first round losers need to have their expenses etc covered, I didn't recall distinction being made between having a tour card or not?

At some point, I will post my spreadsheet explaining how I'd work this - for now I'll say that if the business model demands flat-128 draws and no qualifying tournaments, then yeah - there's no tenable way for the tour as it is to support more than 128 full-time players.

Now this I would be interested in seeing, presumably you want something like 96 on main tour plus qualifiers for each event that lead to 32 players making it through to round 1, for example?

 

[Aislabie]

Yeah whilst the quality would be amazing and TV would love it, for everyone else connected to the game it would be horrendous. I had forgotten about Kyren Wilson, imagine if he had got lost to the game (now multi ranker and World finalist)

Oh yeah, the quality of snooker would be unbelievable for a while. And you'd likely have a bunch of one-table events, which would be fun.

Oh I thought been reading lately that top Pro's were highlighting fact that first round losers need to have their expenses etc covered, I didn't recall distinction being made between having a tour card or not?

Hmmm it may be different then - though I wouldn't imagine that any help from WST would provide for more than a basic option, and given that Ronnie was at The Imperial Hotel in Llandudno for the Tour Championship a few years ago, there's no way WST's help would extend that far. Certainly, the help doesn't completely cover players' travel and accommodation - but they don't have to pay entry fees which "amateurs" do.

Much of the complaining was from Shaun Murphy and Kyren Wilson about having "mortgages to pay", and as for Mark Allen, well - that is one dodgy financial situation. But it's not really them who should be complaining - the 64th-ranked player on last season's one-year list was Sunny Akani, who made £31,500. This is an intelligent 26-year-old from the other side of the world - you certainly wouldn't criticise him for saying enough is enough.

Certainly the Chinese tournaments, and the Saudi one once it gets the go-ahead potentially next season, are crucial for snooker to keep being a viable living for its professional players.

Now this I would be interested in seeing, presumably you want something like 96 on main tour plus qualifiers for each event that lead to 32 players making it through to round 1, for example?

Of course, my plan does somewhat rely on their being a return to pre-Covid tournaments and things, but I would be looking at essentially having three levels of pro tours:

• World Tour - with the World Championship, Tour Championship, four Majors, Masters, Champion of Champions and a selection of other events
• European Tour - with around the same amount of events, spread across Britain and Europe; often lower-paying events
• Asian Tour - same vibe as the European Tour; we'd be looking at some the Chinese events, Indian Open, that kind of event
• Women's Tour - already exists; just a matter of integrating it into some world rankings
• Seniors' Tour - also already exists, but definitely needs to become less Anglo-centric
• Challenge Tour - see: Seniors Tour; this would also be designed to include some of the major pro-ams, like the Vienna Open
• Q School - with a little bit of tweaking, this could really be a good route onto the World and Regional Tours

The idea being that players would have a safety net if they fall off the main tour, and that world rankings would include more than just the top 128 players.

I designed a Tariff system that would allow for players to enter into certain tournaments not specifically on their usual Tour schedule, and some World Tour events (most notably the World Championship) would have fields of more than 128 players (even if they are put into qualifying draws). Sometimes, more than one Tour would have an event running at the same time, and that's okay too.

I would also buy up the Snooker.tv domain and stream every non-TV table from every WST event, anywhere in the world in return for a subscription - maybe a tiered subscription depending on whether people want to watch the World Tour, World and Regional Tours, or all of the events. It's another revenue stream. I'd also change up the dress code so that players can wear distinctive shirts in the same way that darts players can - then they can also sell them through WST to net a nice revenue stream while WST takes a 10% cut.

Certain tournaments would also be encouraged to reserve certain places in their tournaments for players from their region. For example, if the English Open had 64 places reserved for players under the English flag, the Northern Irish for players under the Northern- and Republic of Ireland flags, and so on. This would ensure that not all tournaments always have the same players playing against one another, which would be great.

And anyone who played in any event put on by any of these tours would be ranked, because that's how I personally think it should be.

Again - I am definitely not going to get a job with WST any time soon

 

[zimrahil]

I see some similarities with Golf: The PGA tour, European tour, Asian tour, African tour, and the world golf tour, Though the world golf tour isn’t really seen as the pinnacle of the sport.
I love the idea of all events been ranked even it’s been played concurrently across the different tours, the biggest challenge of course is how to get enough interest/players/sponsorship etc globally to make all these Tours viable.
it would be amazing if one day we got something even 10% similar to this.

Something they could do now though is your idea of streaming non-TV tables, I think there would be enough interest in that in the UK alone and probably Asia too. Surprised Barry Hearn when chairman didn’t think of doing this as he always thinks of money first.

Just watching the final of the German Masters, Xintong currently 8-0 up as I type, really fulfilling all that potential he has shown for years. Hopefully someone who can come close to taking over Ronnie’s mantle when he retires.

 

[Deleted member 211254]

Shame about Selby losing, but hoping an English player wins this event.