South Africa in England July-Sept 2012

[used2bcool]

@Haarithan: It didn't happen in any of the series you have mentioned. In that time, England and South Africa went at each other nine times (including the Oval 2012) and the team batting first lost six times (five of those being England).

The last time an England-South Africa Test ended with the team batting first also winning was in Johannesburg in 2005, when England won by 77 runs.

 

[Haarithan]

@Haarithan: It didn't happen in any of the series you have mentioned. In that time, England and South Africa went at each other nine times (including the Oval 2012) and the team batting first lost six times (five of those being England).

That was precisely what I'd posted lol

Four of those being England and two of those being South Africa.

The last time an England-South Africa Test ended with the team batting first also winning was in Johannesburg in 2005, when England won by 77 runs.

Thought so.

 

[Owzat]

teeny bopper is out "for personal reasons", in comes James Taylor.

England squad for second Test: Andrew Strauss (Middlesex, capt), Alastair Cook (Essex), Jonathan Trott (Warwickshire), Kevin Pietersen (Surrey), Ian Bell (Warwickshire), James Taylor (Nottinghamshire), Matt Prior (Sussex, wk), Tim Bresnan (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Graeme Swann (Nottinghamshire), James Anderson (Lancashire), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Graham Onions (Durham)

BBC Sport - James Taylor in for second England v South Africa Test


I thought I'd have a look at the bowling stats for the seamers, see if Bresnan is holding his place for batting reasons or purely on bowling.

Finn (14 Tests) : 56 wkts @ 27.43 (SR 44.52, ER 3.70, BB 6/125, 5wi x3)
Onions (9 Tests) : 32 wkts @ 29.91 (SR 50.19, ER 3.58, BB 5/38, 5wi x1)
Anderson (71 Tests) : 268 wkts @ 30.38 (SR 58.00, ER 3.14, BB 7/43, 5wi x12)
Bresnan (15 Tests) : 56 wkts @ 28.13 (SR 58.34, ER 2.89, BB 5/48, 5wi x1)
Broad (48 Tests) : 161 wkts @ 31.16 (SR 62.29, ER 3.00, BB 7/72, 5wi x5)

I've ordered them by SR to be devil's advocate, although that is arguably the best order as you try to bowl sides out - unless someone is excessively expensive in terms of ER.

Finn has three 5wis to Broad's five, in a third of the number of Tests. He isn't as economic as Anderson, Bresnan or Broad, but his SR would compensate the ER, especially if he knocks over the top order.

Personally I would pick Finn and two others, while I do like the side to have batting down the order I think we already have that. So the tail would not be that big an issue, economy to me isn't an issue either, for me the issue is we need bowlers to take wickets and Finn would have offered something different when we need(ed) it.

7. Prior
8. Broad/Bresnan
9. Swann
10. Anderson
11. Finn

or

7. Prior
8. Broad/Bresnan
9. Bresnan/Broad
10. Swann
11. Finn

Plenty of batting there, I doubt many would want to leave Anderson out so for me it would be Bresnan - although the below suggests maybe Anderson or Broad

vs AUS/IND/SAF/SRI (05/06 onwards) :

Bresnan : 30 wkts @ 22.90
Finn : 21 wkts @ 32.57
Anderson : 136 wkts @ 34.19
Broad : 79 wkts @ 34.42
Onions : 18 wkts @ 37.17

vs PAK/NZE/BAN/WIN (05/06 onwards) :

Onions : 14 wkts @ 20.57
Anderson : 97 wkts @ 22.86
Finn : 35 wkts @ 24.34
Broad : 82 wkts @ 28.02
Bresnan : 26 wkts @ 34.15

Might seem harsh to put Pakistan in there, and indeed the kiwis with Bangladesh and windies, but some of the bowling averages don't suggest I'm wrong to do so. Swann averages 34.92 against the top sides, 23.22 against the rest, the opposite way round to Bresnan.

Bresnan's average is hauled right down by the Indian's visit which was poor fare indeed, and the Ashes series down under where the aussies were far from at their best. He may be found wanting against a side that is strong both on paper and out in the middle. Tremlett has 49 wickets, none against the four sides in the second list yet can't get a look in..................

Finn and Bresnan both played in the last Ashes series down under, Finn took 14 wickets in the first three Tests, but at a moderate average while Bresnan took 11 wickets in the last two Tests at a good average and surprisingly the better SR of the two (marginally) Finn's ER was 1.5 times that of Bresnan.

 

[puddleduck]

I feel a bit sorry for the Tremulator. The guy has delivered pretty consistently.

Also Broad's numbers in the last 2 years are far superior to most bowlers in world cricket, so it somewhat misleading to judge him based on his first couple of years... Much like Finn went for far more runs before he was dropped than since he came back.

Although it's not like you to use statistics that are outdated

 

[War]

I Wonder how close Hildreth came towards selection here. But anyway i still believe 5-bowler should play in the second test for England.

 

[MUFC1987]

I can answer that by saying that he probably didn't even get mentioned. Taylor, Bairstow and probably Compton would have been considered. Hildreth didn't get picked for that Lions team, so he's no where near getting a test spot.

Anyways, I'm not so sure about Taylor. I mean the positive is that he has started to get some runs now, so that's good, but I just feel that the South African bowlers will test him, especially with the short ball. I'm just not sure that he's experienced enough to know what to leave and what to play, which I think a player like Compton would know. Especially when you consider that we need to win both matches to win the series, it's a lot of pressure on him if the top order fail to fire again.

 

[puddleduck]

Is calling up Taylor a sign that maybe they'll shock South Africa and go in with the 5 bowlers?

 

[War]

I can answer that by saying that he probably didn't even get mentioned. Taylor, Bairstow and probably Compton would have been considered. Hildreth didn't get picked for that Lions team, so he's no where near getting a test spot.

Anyways, I'm not so sure about Taylor. I mean the positive is that he has started to get some runs now, so that's good, but I just feel that the South African bowlers will test him, especially with the short ball. I'm just not sure that he's experienced enough to know what to leave and what to play, which I think a player like Compton would know. Especially when you consider that we need to win both matches to win the series, it's a lot of pressure on him if the top order fail to fire again.

The reason i think Compton may not get picked right now is because he is not a # 6 and you run the risk of wasting him, if he is not batting in the top three i reckon.

Maybe if Strauss has a shocking series with the bat, Compton may become his replacement down the line.

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Is calling up Taylor a sign that maybe they'll shock South Africa and go in with the 5 bowlers?

I certainly hope so.

 

[Themer]

I certainly hope so.

I certainly hope not.

 

[MUFC1987]

The reason i think Compton may not get picked right now is because he is not a # 6 and you run the risk of wasting him, if he is not batting in the top three i reckon.

Maybe if Strauss has a shocking series with the bat, Compton may become his replacement down the line.

Depends what you deem to be the norm from your number 6 batsman really. I agree he's not going to come in and thrash the bowlers around if we happen to be 400/4 when he walks in. But in the first Test, we collapsed once the top order went in the first innings and only Bell dug in in the second innings from the top 6. In those instances, a player who's willing to take their time and build an innings would have been perfect. So I don't think it'd be a huge problem really. I'd say we're much more likely to need a steadying influence against South Africa than someone to come in and cash in on a flat wicket.

And for that reason, I can't see us going with 5 bowlers either. I mean yes, we didn't take enough wickets, so maybe bring Finn in, but the batting was poor enough that we can't afford to just go in with 5 batsmen for me.

 

[puddleduck]

I'm sure they're fully aware that Taylor has so far excelled more against pace bowlers than spin. Certainly be interesting. If he averages 15+ he'll have done better than everyone else who's batted at 6 over the last year

 

[War]

I certainly hope not.

Cool.

Depends what you deem to be the norm from your number 6 batsman really. I agree he's not going to come in and thrash the bowlers around if we happen to be 400/4 when he walks in. But in the first Test, we collapsed once the top order went in the first innings and only Bell dug in in the second innings from the top 6. In those instances, a player who's willing to take their time and build an innings would have been perfect. So I don't think it'd be a huge problem really. I'd say we're much more likely to need a steadying influence against South Africa than someone to come in and cash in on a flat wicket.

And for that reason, I can't see us going with 5 bowlers either. I mean yes, we didn't take enough wickets, so maybe bring Finn in, but the batting was poor enough that we can't afford to just go in with 5 batsmen for me.

Well yea fair point. Traditionally you want your # 6 to be a bit a free-scoring player. But against this saffies attack, that may not be easy.

It would still depend on Compton personally i guess, since to my knowledge he has never batted that now before in his FC career. I've seen a few top international players (Ponting in his early days @ #6 and Laxman as an opener), who came into international cricket batting out of position and struggle to adapt.

On the 5-bowlers. Yea i know its extreme and i don't expect it to happen. But long term if this England team is going to move on to the next level, i think playing 5-bowlers regularly will need to be happen.

But of course that hinges alot on how Bresnan or Chris Woakes can develop into competent # 7 all-rounders in tests.

 

[cricket_icon]

What, why is Taylor in the squad and Bopara out? I know Ravi didn't do well but surely he deserves a run. How can any player be given confidence if he gets dropped consistently like Bopara does? Not only does he get dropped he is moved up and down the order. There is a terrible selection policy when it comes to players of Asian origins, something Atherton has often eluded too. While players like Bell, Collingwood, Harmison and co. have been extended runs in the team, after performing poorly, Asian players are constantly dropped after one bad game. Look at Shah, one of the better English batsmen in the ODI game, he was moved up and down the order and dropped when ever they felt like it. I thought that things might have changed in recent years and for a while it seemed like that, with more consistent selection but in terms of players from an ethnic background the inconsistency is still there.

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My post is by no means a slight on Taylor, he is a capable player but Bopara deserved at least one more game. I'd just like to add Morgan to the list of "white" players given a run in the side even when they were failing. Personally I would have dropped Bresnan, mainly because his batting isn't up to standards of many other all rounders and his bowling is lacking that extra pace and bite Finn gets. Looking at the squad this would be my team:

Cook
Strauss (anymore lack lustre performances and if England lose again, Strauss might have to go)
Trott
Bell
KP
Taylor
Prior
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson

 

[puddleduck]

Ravi is out for personal reasons

 

[Aalay]

Ravi is out for personal reasons

Why? Is he pregnant?