South Africa tour of India 2019/20

[danielcarrico]

Pretty much all I wanted to say. Can't agree more, bored and sick of the word talent in Indian cricket.

And do you agree with me about Bumrah also? He is another IPL hyped ''talent''. Likes of Umesh, Shami and Bhuvi have been unfairly treated for this guy.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Bumrah has had invisible hands of support, where Umesh has been completely destroyed by the management. Umesh is a real test bowler, he bowls to take wickets. Bumrah just isn't a test bowler, irrespective of his record. His record in Australia was artificially enhanced by Steve Smith's absence. I just hope Kohli sees the truth and understands that Umesh and Shami are superior test bowlers. Even in the world cup, I was grossly unconvinced by Bumrah's bowling. It wasn't our top 3 which lost us the NZ match, it was Pant's outrageous innings and Bumrah's defensive bowling which cost us the world cup.

Bumrah has literally got 5 wicket haul in each of the Country he has played a Test match and you are calling someone like Umesh Yadav better than him ? Umesh Yadav looked clueless in English conditions last year. He just knows to hit the deck hard and bowl fast and doesn't offer much of control. On the other hand Bumrah consistently bowls on the channel which can time and again beat the edge of the bat and everytime he has come on to bowl has looked to be threatening to get a wicket. Most of the batsman who have played him has gone on to say that Bumrah is a great bowler and has a very bright future ahead of him in all 3 forms of the game. To have a bowler like Bumrah is a big bonus to any side in world Cricket right now. Bowlers like him are hard to find these days.

 

[Bevab]

Bumrah has had invisible hands of support, where Umesh has been completely destroyed by the management. Umesh is a real test bowler, he bowls to take wickets. Bumrah just isn't a test bowler, irrespective of his record. His record in Australia was artificially enhanced by Steve Smith's absence. I just hope Kohli sees the truth and understands that Umesh and Shami are superior test bowlers. Even in the world cup, I was grossly unconvinced by Bumrah's bowling. It wasn't our top 3 which lost us the NZ match, it was Pant's outrageous innings and Bumrah's defensive bowling which cost us the world cup.

2nd Test, India tour of Australia at Perth, Dec 14-18 2018

1st innings
J. Bumrah 26-8-53-2
U. Yadav 23-3-78-2

2nd innings
J. Bumrah 25.2-10-39-3
U. Yadav 14-0-61-0

And yeah, sure. Chahal leaking runs was not the reason why our bowling wasn't upto the mark, it was because Bumrah bowled defensively. Also, I'm pretty sure that the reason why India lost the game was Pant scored just 32 in his outrageous innings rather than the top three scoring a collective of three runs. Anyone who is happy upon seeing a player injured, let alone the best bowler in their lineup is an obvious troll and it is confirmed by your incredulous wish of preferring a player who averages 15 over 55 hypothetically just because the former works hard.

It is amazing that people believe this shite that players like Pant and Bumrah are the products of wealthy backing, nepotism or invisible hands of support. The former was a kid from Uttarkhand who had to work harder than the other Delhiites to stand out, was willing to put in the yards and reaped the rewards with an incredible first-class season where he had a batting average of 81.

"In our club, I've not seen kids work this hard. We train here from morning 7 to evening 7, during which he'd be with us. Going back home for him was only to eat and sleep," Sharma says. "He'd work hard like a good player, like an enthusiastic small boy. He left no stones unturned in the effort he put in. To come from that far away and stay here, stay alone. It isn't easy for a 13-year-old to stay alone and away from his family, but he did. And that's because he knew he wanted to play cricket, wanted to move forward in the game. So this way he kept working hard. His father's dream was to watch him be a good player. So he kept training to fulfil that dream."

As for the latter...

On Sunday afternoons Daljit could hear the familiar dull thud of the ball cannoning into the junction of floor and wall at one end of the longest corridor in their flat. The flat got smaller, the corridor shorter, and as the boy got older, she would hear him moving around early and heading out. On his bicycle, 30-odd minutes one way, for training, for trials, for matches. Her energetic scamp of a son turned into a disciplined devotee of the game. Not a day or a time missed. If the cycle broke down and he did not have enough change in his pockets, he would push it along on foot, summer, winter or the sticky in between.

 

[Velocity]

I don't care what Pant averages. He could average 55 and Saha 15 but I'll take Saha any day of the week. I am sick of these so-called ''talented'' cricketers in Indian team. I don't want talented players in India team, I want hard working players. Pant is just an IPL product. He is being backed just because he plays the glamourous, nationalist IPL.

That's why I was fairly happy when Bumrah got injured. I think he's been unfairly backed ahead of Umesh for test cricket, despite the latter grinding it for years on tough Indian pitches. The way that Bumrah is hyped, I won't be surprised if they are secretly hiding him from grinding it in home test cricket and giving injury excuse just because of their unfair bias and backing towards Bumrah.

The hype of these IPL products is just sad. Take me back to the old days, before 2013..

The glamorous IPL has birthed a Indian fast bowler superstar who took his chances when it came. Nearly everyone was against Bumrah's selection when he was handed a debut, but he's grabbed his opportunities ad he's been excellent so far. Umesh on the other hand has been fairly inconsistent with the chances that came his way barring a few good performances. Now given that, it's fair to say Bumrah plays ahead of Umesh with this logic and it's been an unfortunate story not because of unfair usage by the management, but he comes in at a time where Indian fast bowling stocks are plentiful and thriving.

And on the Saha story, no one is doubting that he's worked hard to get where he is. But when you consider the ages of both Saha and Pant, it seems pretty obvious who is the best option going forward into the future. Pant is only 22, and he's got a while career ahead of him and Saha will retire soon enough. Pant can't be blamed for his successes as he too took his chances and he ended up with two hundreds in English and Oz conditions. Saha is much better with the gloves, but clearly Pant has proven his potential and with time he will become a far better keeper and batsman and a future match-winner is currently in the making. Why should that process be disturbed? It's been quite a dangerous environment with what's been said in the media about Pant and I surely hope that hasn't dented his confidence.

 

[Aalay]

If you are doubting Bumrah as a bowler, you must have trust issues in your life.

I am not against Umesh and I think he bowled his heart out in that 2016/17 home season. I still remember his spell against Bangladesh in 2017 test match where he was just unplayable. I have posted a quote below from Shakib from that match about Umesh. I have rarely seen that sort of spell on Indian wicket and he rightly deserved a spot when we travelled to South Africa later that year. The management decided to play Bumrah over Umesh which was frustrating. However, since then the trio of Ishant, Shami and Bumrah has been excellent and there is no way you can replace them. It is tough on Umesh but that's how the game of cricket is. He is the next in line but we rarely play four fast bowlers so his chances of playing are very limited unless one of the trio gets injured overseas.

Umesh Yadav's morning spell was the best I have ever faced in my Test career: Shakib Al Hasan

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

If you are doubting Bumrah as a bowler, you must have trust issues in your life.

I am not against Umesh and I think he bowled his heart out in that 2016/17 home season. I still remember his spell against Bangladesh in 2017 test match where he was just unplayable. I have posted a quote below from Shakib from that match about Umesh. I have rarely seen that sort of spell on Indian wicket and he rightly deserved a spot when we travelled to South Africa later that year. The management decided to play Bumrah over Umesh which was frustrating. However, since then the trio of Ishant, Shami and Bumrah has been excellent and there is no way you can replace them. It is tough on Umesh but that's how the game of cricket is. He is the next in line but we rarely play four fast bowlers so his chances of playing are very limited unless one of the trio gets injured overseas.

Umesh Yadav's morning spell was the best I have ever faced in my Test career: Shakib Al Hasan

I also remember he bowled terrifically well against West Indies in Hyderabad last year but to my surprise his Overseas exploits where the conditions favour the fast bowlers hasn't been good enough. And that is why you see Bumrah playing ahead of Umesh. Ideally I would even play Bhuvneshwar Kumar ahead of Umesh but he is so unfortunate to not even find a place in the current Test team. And now even dropped from the T20I side.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

If you are doubting Bumrah as a bowler, you must have trust issues in your life.

 

[LiveLoveABD]

lol.

Firstly, the post was about Pant's temperament in Test matches and you contradicting yourself where you're opposing Rohit Sharma based on his temperament in Test matches while hooting for Pant's selection?

Better not to talk about batting averages, you can't judge a player based on that in Cricket(check Rohit's avg). And I don't know for how many years more will people boast about Pant's century in England where I'm not sure if you saw rest five(5!) of his innings which were single digit scores. Talk about the series in Australia, all his scores in the Test series in Australia were around 20-30s and even less than that except for that one and only century. So if failing in all matches and scoring a century in the last one where we already lost the match, series warrants you a place in the team? Time to move on and see other performances, Ajit Agarkar isn't our best batsman just so he has a century in England.

The confidence part was about him losing his playstyle just so he's dropped, he got most matches than anyone in the team in all the recent limited overs match we saw.

In the list of top 3 dominant batters we have? lmao. When and where has he won us a game.. dominance is not unecessary slogging, it's taking your team through and winning games for your country. He ain't no Sehwag! He bats at a position he should be finishing games but has he..

What about Pant's temperament? He has proven that he can make runs in SENA conditions. The greatest innings as mentioned by VVS Laxman is his century in Sydney and any buffoon will tell you that the game was over when he made those runs. It's quite convenient to say "except those two hundreds he made 20's and 30's." Why don't we then evaluate Tendulkar on the basis of the innings apart from his 100 100's? This has been mentioned by Dhoni somewhere that he finds this argument pathetic and in my mind he's the greatest thinker of the game.

If, LOI innings are the detriment to test selection then Pujara should never have played a test after his white ball antics. Dravid for the longest time was poor in the format.

Just to clear my point on Rohit, I have in detail explained why his technique is better than that of Kohli. Somebody somewhere has mentioned his weakness against the in swinger and that will always be there with him, same with AB and same with Sangakkara. I just find it convenient to place him at the top of the order at this stage of his life. I don't think he has more than 4-5 years at best and we are not WI, SL or PAK with a scarcity of talent with all due respect. I still feel Rohit had more than Virat as a batter on all levels, but Virat has an attitude and mental fortitude few do and his fitness is supreme. I'd love to see what size dry-fit tee Sharma wears because he's really fat. I don't know if you understand me, but from pure batsmanship, I like Rohit more than Virat. In my book, he's a leader as well and I would make him LOI captain tomorrow if I could. He has been a huge disappointment in tests much like Yuvraj.

As far as the dig on him being the 3 most dominant batters goes? He's no Sehwag! He's better! Just like you don't know if he's as good, I think he's better and be sure I will pull this up when he proves you wrong. That kid is the most special thing I have seen in world cricket with the gloves since Gilchrist! Time will tell.

And all that talk about Saha's keeping.. he was quite poor in this test match. If this debate is about their batting, we are not on the same planet.

 

[Villain]

What about Pant's temperament? He has proven that he can make runs in SENA conditions. The greatest innings as mentioned by VVS Laxman is his century in Sydney and any buffoon will tell you that the game was over when he made those runs. It's quite convenient to say "except those two hundreds he made 20's and 30's." Why don't we then evaluate Tendulkar on the basis of the innings apart from his 100 100's? This has been mentioned by Dhoni somewhere that he finds this argument pathetic and in my mind he's the greatest thinker of the game.

If, LOI innings are the detriment to test selection then Pujara should never have played a test after his white ball antics. Dravid for the longest time was poor in the format.

Just to clear my point on Rohit, I have in detail explained why his technique is better than that of Kohli. Somebody somewhere has mentioned his weakness against the in swinger and that will always be there with him, same with AB and same with Sangakkara. I just find it convenient to place him at the top of the order at this stage of his life. I don't think he has more than 4-5 years at best and we are not WI, SL or PAK with a scarcity of talent with all due respect. I still feel Rohit had more than Virat as a batter on all levels, but Virat has an attitude and mental fortitude few do and his fitness is supreme. I'd love to see what size dry-fit tee Sharma wears because he's really fat. I don't know if you understand me, but from pure batsmanship, I like Rohit more than Virat. In my book, he's a leader as well and I would make him LOI captain tomorrow if I could. He has been a huge disappointment in tests much like Yuvraj.

As far as the dig on him being the 3 most dominant batters goes? He's no Sehwag! He's better! Just like you don't know if he's as good, I think he's better and be sure I will pull this up when he proves you wrong. That kid is the most special thing I have seen in world cricket with the gloves since Gilchrist! Time will tell.

And all that talk about Saha's keeping.. he was quite poor in this test match. If this debate is about their batting, we are not on the same planet.

Fair enough, I got your point and there's no point in debating anymore. I'll just wait patiently to see how well he fares in Test cricket as most of this discussion depends on his future performances. If he works hard he may well succeed which would only benefit our team so let's just wait and see. Cheers.

Getting back to the topic,
It was a good win for us, Shami was brilliant with the ball and Rohit put up another century!

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

Why don't we then evaluate Tendulkar on the basis of the innings apart from his 100 100's?

Because he also has nearly 300 scores in excess of 50. Sachin Tendulkar is beyond comparison for any player in world Cricket right now.

Dravid for the longest time was poor in the format.

Was he ? I think he was very good LOI batsman for India. Infact there was a time somewhere around 1997-98 he was regarded as the 2nd best batsman across formats in World Cricket at that time.

with Sangakkara.

Maybe I am not aware of it but did Sangakkara had any weakness as a batsman ? I haven't seen him play prior to 2012. But since that time he looked the most stable batsman amongst all the players that I have seen. Barring his inconsistency he was very good. I think I haven't mentioned it but Sangakkara as been my all time favourite batsman and I could watch him play all day long.

Also I haven't said that Rohit Sharma has any technical issues but I said that why he can't open is because of the reason of him not able to tackle the moving ball. To be precise he is prepared to play the line and length but not the moving ball. If you would have noticed different batsman and Rohit carefully, Rohit plants his foot on the off-stump way before the ball is bowled. There are other players who do the same but they get into better positions before the ball reaches them.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

As far as I know the red soil surfaces South Africa would've the advantage coming in to Pune especially after their batting doing so well in last Test. The result of the 2nd Test match would depend on who bats better. India should continue with the same team. As for the Proteas, Dane Piedt should make way for someone like Ngidi as pacers are more effective on surfaces with bounce. Nortje unfortunately misses out due to inexperience.

 

[SaiSrini]

Good XI for the second test! I was hoping that they drop Vihari for a third seamer, and that is exactly what India have done. With Ashwin and Jadeja as more than useful lower order bats and Ishant Sharma also showing promise to bat decently out there, Vihari is not needed and India might as well strengthen their pace attack. If only Bumrah was fit, the bowling attack for this game would've looked even more menacing.

 

[Targaryen]

Agarwal should've been in the team long ago since he had been performing fairly well in domestic circuit. The likes of Jadav and Dhawan were given a chance and not Agarwal. I'm really happy that he was finally picked against a solid bowling unit and he has justified himself with his performance.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

The likes of Jadav and Dhawan were given a chance and not Agarwal.

Looking at how things spanned out I felt it was rather unfair on Jadhav when we talk about him getting chances. I felt to some extent he was under-utilised as a batsman. I think Jadhav was quite consistent with his performances right since 2017. And honestly Dhawan's absence also cost us the World Cup. I think he got his chance only when it was due for him. Although I also agree that he could've been in the side earlier. I think he could've played ahead of Prithvi Shaw during the home series against the West Indies last year.

 

[NILAYSHAH60]

I am fairly neutral on the fact that India played Umesh Yadav ahead of Hanuma Vihari. Satisfied with Piedt's exclusion as he couldn't have offered much on this Pune surface. Extremely surprised on Nortje getting picked ahead of Ngidi. I felt things would've a lot more different if Ngidi had played.

On our batting I think like we saw a revived version of Rohit Sharma in Tests in this series. Even today he spend some decent amount of time and wasn't looking to go for the big shots. I think he was unfortunate to get out to a ball that most of the batsman would've failed to handle. That was just class bowling from Rabada. And Mayank Agarwal is proving to be grabbing his opportunities by both hands. If he can get used to playing the short ball better than he would become a great player in the coming year. Pujara once again proved his mettle and worth in the Test arena and got out to a ball similar to the one that got Rohit Sharma out. Kohli scoring some runs after a while in this format was yet another positive for us. And the way Rahane stuck out there in the middle it was pleasing to watch.

285/3 in 85.3 overs is some dominance. I think after some 30-40 minutes after start of play tomorrow India need to look to lift up their run-rate and score some bonus runs. Scoring 500-600 is always something that can pull more than half of the match towards you and gives confidence and time for the bowlers to get the opposition out. Match still fairly balanced.