South Africa tour of New Zealand, Feb-March 2011/12

[sifter132]

Well played Kane Williamson..rightfully earned the respect of a formidable opposition on the back of a century fashioned by good old-fashioned hard work and grit..way to go young man... test crickets future lies with youngsters like you...

Agreed. I really like his style, not his results - just the way he bats. Also gotta like the the way he loves that bat of his. Strapped together with tape, it's SO red, middle is absolutely covered with cherries.

 

[ferg512]

Williamson's played his two best innings in the series when he came in very early on, therefore he has all of the goods to bat three. McCullum should move back to opening, which means Flynn and Brownlie can occupy five and six respectively. That leaves one of Watling or van Wyk to bat at seven, both of whom I think will do a more the capable job, and four bowlers depending on the conditions etc.

Makes sense but won't happen, McCullum wants to bat three even at the detriment of the team. I also would like Flynn in that middle order but he did do a pretty decent job in the first innings which will probably lead the selectors to keep him opening. Its sad saying this but Vettori is going to be a big problem, I'm really not sure what they are going to do with him. The windies series would be a great starting point for a new spinner to come in and ease him into test cricket.

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Also really glad how Williamson played today, really showed a few of the senior playerss how its done at this level. I had my doubts about him even midway through the series but he definitely has the goods.

 

[War]

I stated on the thread when he made his debut that he's got genuine skill with the ball. But to achieve this much this quickly, he's blown my mind. And the most impressive thing of all is that he's in direct competition with Steyn for wickets. And he's over-shown him consistently since his debut. That is a very impressive feat.

With Philander and Steyn, backed up by Delange, Morkel and Tahir, SA have got the tools necessary to be the next dominant team. Too bad they're chokers.

Indeed, which is why their tour to England in a few months is going to be superb viewing.

 

[Papa_Smurf]

Maybe not - all Smith needs to do is chuck the ball to Tahir and Botha and sit back

 

[War]

This series has just been the same old frustrating story as a NZC fan. Some of the selections were bizarre, and the performances of some players were massive disappointments.

The obvious positives were Gillespie and Williamson, along with the likes of van Wyk.

I have to agree with ferg512, Vettori has to go. Imo you pick your six best batsmen, a WK, and your four best bowlers, which considering Vettori was batting seven and took three wickets in a lot of overs, he is not one of. Go back to playing ODIs/T20s where you were one of the best bowlers in the world, instead of what I'm sadly to say is wasting a space in our test team.

Williamson's played his two best innings in the series when he came in very early on, therefore he has all of the goods to bat three. McCullum should move back to opening, which means Flynn and Brownlie can occupy five and six respectively. That leaves one of Watling or van Wyk to bat at seven, both of whom I think will do a more the capable job, and four bowlers depending on the conditions etc.

With regards to Vettori and the four bowlers.

As a NZ fan lets say you pick four seamers out of Martin/Gillespie/Bracewell/Bolt/Southee, are you confident they can take 20 wickets in all conditions?.

Secondly don't NZ fans think Vettori can bat @ # 6 and give consistent runs like Sakib does for Bangladesh?, since if he can along with those 4 quicks - it would give the attack 5 bowlers, which from an outside view i do think NZ would need in most conditions.

 

[Howsie]

With regards to Vettori and the four bowlers.

As a NZ fan lets say you pick four seamers out of Martin/Gillespie/Bracewell/Bolt/Southee, are you confident they can take 20 wickets in all conditions?.

Secondly don't NZ fans think Vettori can bat @ # 6 and give consistent runs like Sakib does for Bangladesh?, since if he can along with those 4 quicks - it would give the attack 5 bowlers, which from an outside view i do think NZ would need in most conditions.

Vettori's not much of a test bowler anymore though, that's the problem. What's the use of a guy batting at six who averages 30 with the bat and 50 with the ball? He's not really bringing anything to the team. I love Daniel Vettori, always have and always will, but I get the feeling playing as a batsmen first might just be a bridge too far for him at this stage of his career. I'd give him a few more test matches at six to see if he pans out but I don't think it will.

However, I think everyone will agree New Zealand can never go into a test match again with Daniel Vettori being part of a four man bowling attack. Horrible stuff, just plan horrible.

 

[6ry4nj]

Vettori's not much of a test bowler anymore though, that's the problem. What's the use of a guy batting at six who averages 30 with the bat and 50 with the ball? He's not really bringing anything to the team. I love Daniel Vettori, always have and always will, but I get the feeling playing as a batsmen first might just be a bridge too far for him at this stage of his career. I'd give him a few more test matches at six to see if he pans out but I don't think it will.

I wouldn't pick him personally (talking Tests here), but an average of 30 is near enough to good enough for a Kiwi top 7 bat, with the 5th bowling option and the experience. As for bowling at 50, I'm sure he still has better performances than that in him.

And of course I agree you can't pick him as a bowler - probably ever again.

 

[sifter132]

^Well yeah, that's the point. Until you can replace Vettori with someone who is definitely going to average higher than 30 with bat, why should he be dropped? And lets be honest, in the last few years Vettori's average has been much higher than 30. From 2005 til now Vettori averages smidge under 40 with bat NZ batsmen from 2005 onwards, by average.

Long term I guess Williamson could be your spinning all-rounder, but I think it's better for him to focus on batting at present. The other point is who would be the primary spinner if Vettori doesn't play? And would he fit in with the team tactics? At least with Vettori you know he can hold up an end. If you play that new leggie Nethula, he may be easily targetted and not able to bowl a lot of overs if his confidence dips. That would mean your 3 other quicks would be bowling a LOT. Or you'd have to play an extra bowler to cover for that factor weakening the batting.

Vettori is the more conservative play, and he helps keep NZ in games for longer by lengthening the batting, and not giving away easy runs. If NZ need to win, then yeah maybe you have to risk dropping him.

 

[CG123]

Re Vettori, batting at seven or above (so more or less when he's played a genuine AR), he's only averaging 28.

It's all very well to say that since 2005 he's been averaging 40, but most of that was done batting at number eight against an old ball and a tiring bowling attack, not when we're four down and the balls reverse swinging.

Yes I think his batting has been very underrated over the last several years, but I just don't think that heading into a massive test match season for NZC he's the way forward.

With regards to Vettori and the four bowlers.

As a NZ fan lets say you pick four seamers out of Martin/Gillespie/Bracewell/Bolt/Southee, are you confident they can take 20 wickets in all conditions?.

We have other spinners other than Vettori.

Nethula's next in line atm. He's taken 32 wickets @ under 30 in our domestic FC competition this season. Today he ripped apart the competition winning ND on the final day, which is what we need in our international team. I'm still 50 - 50 on whether I think he has the consistency to succeed in the international game, but we're never going to know unless we give him a go.

 

[ferg512]

Nethula's next in line atm. He's taken 32 wickets @ under 30 in our domestic FC competition this season. Today he ripped apart the competition winning ND on the final day, which is what we need in our international team. I'm still 50 - 50 on whether I think he has the consistency to succeed in the international game, but we're never going to know unless we give him a go.

Exactly, I don't really care whether he doesn't do that great I just would like to see someone other than Vettori given a go. I would take him getting 3-80 off 20 rather than Vettori with his usual 30 overs 0-60. Test cricket is about taking wickets plain and simple.

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Wasn't the only reason Vettori kept playing tests was so he could have a chance at Hadlees 431? That will take him another 50 tests the way hes going.

 

[War]

I hear you Howsie and CG123 and Fergie, so essential you guys are saying Vettori can't play the role for NZ in tests that Sakib does for Bangladesh?

 

[Chewie]

Shakib takes more wickets than Vettori tbf.

 

[CG123]

I hear you Howsie and CG123 and Fergie, so essential you guys are saying Vettori can't play the role for NZ in tests that Sakib does for Bangladesh?

Shakib averages 39 batting at six, while Vettori averages only 29 batting their. And bowling wise Shakib gets a wicket every two less overs on average, i.e. his S/R is 12 better, and his bowling is getting better unlike Vettori's who's is getting worse.